Subject:
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Vegetarianism etc. (was: Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 27 May 2000 18:39:06 GMT
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Viewed:
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1331 times
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James,
upon reading through your response to my last longish note on this it struck me
that I was kind of beating the same topic, and that I sounded antagonistic to
you as a religious person. While I disagree with you, and it makes it harder
to discuss some things because they root down to fundamental differences, I
appreciate your willingness to overlook my repetition and any potential lack of
tact.
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Simpson writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> I'm still not sure that I follow you. My answer, if I understand
> the question correctly, is that I believe that it is a moral evil
> to kill animals gratuitously. (No doubt we'll find some common
> ground here, but disagree as to what exactly gratuitous killing is.)
Right...what is gratuitous killing? Like shooting bison from a west-bound
train 140 years ago in the US west? Is that gratuitous because it's merely
fun? How is that different than merely because it tastes good?
> > And if I'm wrong about the non-existance of anything spiritual, then I doubt
> > that we're the only ones. I have experienced a few exceptional non-humans • with
> > more depth of character than most people exhibit. Were I to wax poetic about
> > souls and afterlife, I would require that other animals be included.
>
> Indeed. The afterlife will be a poorer place if it lacks animal life, but I
> think that it shall.
But isn't the Christian afterlife the perfect world that we can look toward?
Mustn't it have animals then if by lacking them it would be a poorer place?
:-)
> For a member of a religious group (such as mine), the question of what we
> believe that God has said regarding our diets must be weighed into the
equation.
I'm really, really, unfamiliar with the Bible, but don't the dietary edicts
that God handed down to the Jews also apply to Christians? Aren't they part of
the Old Testament? Why don't Christians follow those?
Actually, I just found a cool site at http://unbound.biola.edu/ which indicates
that Leviticus and Deuteronomy agree that God says pork is bad. And Isaiah
implies that pigs are filthy and disgusting and to be reviled. Do these of
God's words weigh in when you're checking out the Bacon at the Denny's buffet?
> I have a friend who is equally orthodox in terms of his theology who has been
> persuaded by the arguments of Peter Singer (with whom you are no doubt
> familiar)
Actually, not as a vegetarian advocate...this conversation is the farthest I've
ever taken advocacy. I'm familiar with him as a folk musician.
> , and has come to the view that it is wrong for humans to eat animal
> flesh if such act can be avoided. I completely respect that position, but am
> not ready to make the same commitment.
You don't sound too far off ;-)
> Perhaps you will think my view to be
> merely self-rationalizing, but it is genuinely where I am at today: Yes, the
> Bible records God telling Peter in the Book of Acts that humans may eat animal
> flesh.
OK, I've been reading this and it seems that in:
"Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts,
and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him,
Rise, Peter; kill, and eat."
God is telling Peter that it's OK to eat that stuff rather than to go without.
What's the history of Peter's conviction at that point? from the stuff
following, it seems that Peter found some (all?) critters unclean or somehow
base and God was telling him to get over it. Did God reveal all creatures, or
just certain ones?
> Now, as I've said I am much persuaded by many of the moral arguments
> against carnivorous survival. The crux of my decision to eat meat rests on a
> fact which I believe to be true: God never created this as the best possible
> world that could be (or has been) created.
I think you allude to this further below, but with your premises, don't you
feel like you have an obligation to make this a better place? Maybe the best
place that you can? Maybe God left this place imperfect so that we would have
something to work toward..?
> Necessary predation when done for survival is neither good nor just,
> nor evil, nor unjust...it is just a fact of our condition as
> inhabitants of this imperfect system of survival that exists on Earth.
I agree. But this also gives me the philosophical stance that when necessary,
preying on humans is also just a fact of survivial. I assume you don't take
that stance.
By the way, I can't find anything in the Bible on cannibalism. Is there
anything?
> But, I concede that because we possess moral faculties,
> we do have the responsibility to use them correctly. Predation
> is probably no longer necessary for our society.
And what impact does this have on your actions.
> Ok, when I see a roach outside, I rarely, rarely kill it. I generally leave
> bugs alone unless they are in my home. If it is in my power to do so, I try • to
> let all creatures alone (live and let live) unless they are im my home. If I
> find any insects in my home, I kill them. I respect their survival, but not • at
> my expense. I realize that I have let down my gaurd with that statement, but • I
> have already conceded your moral argument.
Well here I'll let my guard down too. I follow just about the same philosophy,
but I frequently let the bugs go outside. But not always.
> > A reasonable case for what can be made?
>
> Inherent value and the relative worths of different creatures when competing
> claims must be weighed.
Without an appeal to religion? If you made such a case, I missed it.
> > Another "for the record" here: I don't want to step out of the food web. But
> > my family - if I'm still in the US will be prohibited by law from following • my
> > wishes on disposal of my body. I would like to be dumped out of a plane into
> > the deep woods and left to the environment to deal with. Burrying and • burning
> > are both creepy.
>
> If you'd like to share why you feel that burrying and burning are creepy, I'd • be
> interested to know.
For no particularly rational reason, I suppose. But why take up the space, or
go through those bizzarre rituals? It just doesn't seem right.
Chris
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Message has 2 Replies:
Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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| (...) I'm still not sure that I follow you. My answer, if I understand the question correctly, is that I believe that it is a moral evil to kill animals gratuitously. (No doubt we'll find some common ground here, but disagree as to what exactly (...) (24 years ago, 27-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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