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Tom Stangl wrote:. (...) I agree wholeheartedly; in fact, I think it is the *best* way to gain an understanding of an opposing viewpoint. All I can ask a skeptic is to presuppose the existence of God for the sake of argument. Get somewhat (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Critical Thinking
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(...) Along these same lines, though in a longer format, is Michael Shermer's book "Why People Believe Weird Things," which I also recommend for anyone who'd like to see an application of critical thinking to a range of odd claims and phenomena, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: IP ( was Re: LP POINT 1
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(...) Without getting into the question of which is better, it nevertheless still begs the question of why. WHY are you less interested in fun toys? Is it proper for a government to arrange its affairs so that people HAVE to be less materialistic to (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Critical Thinking
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Digging around, looking for something else, I ran across this rather interesting cite... (URL) here have reason to disagree with it? It is in the context of evaluating paranormal claims, but has bearing on a lot of what we've been bandying about (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) That's why there are still Marxists and Communists in the world! (And, some would argue, Greens and Libertarians.) best LFB (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) That's it exactly, and it applies pretty much to any belief system. That is, the system's truth or falsehood isn't determined by the zaniness or non-zaniness of its supporters. Dave! (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I fully appreciate your questions. Anyone who argues here for the sake of argument is a fool and a waster of time. These questions for me strike at the very reason I choose to get up every day and live. Albert Camus, a great (IMO) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Yep! Wow, Dave! you're right there when I need ya. I just got posting not two seconds ago referring to you. ...and now I'm off, got stuff to do. This looks pretty interesting though :) -Tim (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Having read some of the follow-up fallout to that question, I'd like to ask you a question in return before I answer--what do you think I believe, given my stance here and in whatever debates you've read previously? I'm not squirming, by the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Jon Kozan" <jauction@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:G4wFFH.25F@lugnet.com... (...) and (...) Maybe Bill didn't outline them all here, but I'm still searching, here's the little bit I found: (URL) last sentence of Bill's first paragraph) Maybe (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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I'm going to pull a Larry here - plowed ground, I've already stated my belief in this group, do your research. You must have a strange definition of debating. IN NO WAY do you have to state your own position to debate. In fact, some of the best (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I have the sense that Bill's view of "flawed 'Christianity'" does not mean that Christianity itself is flawed, but rather that people who alleged to follow Christianity (conquistodores et al) were flawed. Is that what you were getting at, Tim? (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) No - I'm not a Calvinist, not Arminian either. I don't accept all of either of their writings. Calvin claimed to be infallable! Couldn't take him seriously after that. Arminius I liked a little more, but don't agree with most of what he says - (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) *The Unitarian perks up* Now, if God is the alpha and omega, knows all past, present, and future, is there really any Free Will beyond simple human Brownian motion? That's the Calvinist model, that we don't really have Free Will, but that our (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Actually, that should be as: Everything is came from god, everything evolves under his control, either good or bad. Anyway, just for knowledge. By the way, for your other question, I was muslim before, now agnostic/atheist/don't care/etc., (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Certainly. But it avoids having to state your own positions which _is_ a requirement in real debating. So, Tom, what do you believe? -Jon (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Why does it matter when debating? Devil's advocate is often the best debating form. (...) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | Please do not associate my personal views with my employer (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Oh, Ok. I must have missed Bill's "flaws". Can you point the way for me? (what posting?) Or perhaps state your sentiments? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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[Much snippage] (...) I can see where he's going with it. It's an old chestnut, basically that only the brave and committed--those above 'so tall' (or is it a statement on predestination--only those predisposed to being this tall? Bill, have you (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Hardly. In the few minutes I have each day to jump into the fray, I've noticed a distinct tendency of many to jab at Christianity, without ever stating their own positions. This morning (my local time), I've merely asked a few of the posters (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Selçuk Göre" <ssgore@superonline.com> wrote in message news:3A27D64E.2969F5...ine.com... (...) He's just curious, really. I'm a Christian, by believing in the teachings of Christ in the Bible. I share the same sentiments on how flawed (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Knowing (if I was God) something - a path is drawn - doesn't mean that I drew the line. You still draw the line - I am just a witness to it. Many, many people get hung up on this point. (...) Perhaps that's a theological point of departure for (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) What are you trying to do? Are you the gate keeper of heaven (or hell)? Selçuk (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Tim - What do you believe? Whether or not you have a 'rational' explaination... -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: New LEGO factory inaugurated
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(...) Perhaps it's meant as an ironic comment. As an American living in the Netherlands, I can tell you that they don't work any harder here than they do at home. [1] (If anything, 5:00pm is even *more* sacrosanct here--the traffic pulse is (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Uhm... Nothing different then, just same as the Islamic approach. Point 2 does not mean anything (what on earth does "apart from time and is not subject to it, entering it as he wills" mean to us poor human beings?), but for the other points, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Jon, Good points :-) I just haven't arrived at a rational explanation yet, besides reading some philosophers for class - and those easily get debunked if you think hard enough. Though I like C.S. Lewis, he doesn't seem that debunkable, but I haven't (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) So, Dave - what do you really believe? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) So you gave irrelevant illustrations and get responses about how irrelevant was. I just can't see any genius trap in it. You obviously seem to see so, but again, I still can't figure out what do you want the achieve with this plan of yours, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) A popularly debated question in Christianity. Succinctly - 1) God knows everything - both past, present and future. 2) God exists apart from time and is not subject to it, ntering it as He wills. 3) God's knowledge doesn't equal control. Just (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) something that bears repeating... (...) ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I can hear Britney singing, "Ooops, I did it again...", right now. LAR!! You fell for trap #3. You're making this too easy. I'm waiting for trap #2 also. Will he see it? Will he side-step it? Ignore it? Fall right in like he has twice already? (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Thanks! It's fun to switch-hit once in a while! (...) Makes sense. I was just subscribing to the big-H "He" tradition, but I wasn't trying to make a statement in my choice of pronoun. Dave! (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I got the impression that the faith concept is a rather different in Christianity. I mean, as I know of from the Islam, faith means god knows everything, including our future, so he already knows how I will act in future cases. The same Islam (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) “Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof.” - Ashley Montague I was thinking about god last night. I think part of the problem with parts of this debate is the need of modern society to break (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Sorry guys - saying that belief in God requires a leap of faith - what you're saying in essence - is exactly what Kant said. God is, however, not removed from reality. Belief in God can indeed be arrived at through rational considerations - (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) He has done just that. He made a way for everyone to enter, some don't want it. I have to object to your statement "regardless of sin", though. You can't justify that statement. If he is holy, he can't do that. Also, for sake of argument, what (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Seems to me, Tom, that you're struggling here... If God didn't allow us to suffer, He would be a controlling entity - and we mere automatons. We do have choise - that is required by true love. I'd be really interested to know what it is that (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Seems to me, Tom, that your struggling here... If God didn't allow us to suffer, He would be a controlling entity - and we mere automatons. We do have choise - that is required by true love. I'd be really interested to know what it is that you (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Precisely. Excellent point, Dave! (...) Yes. BTW, although clumsy, I try and not refer to God with the masculine pronoun, unless I am specifically referring to the metaphor of God as the Father and we as His children. God is too big for a (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Tom, you are not *listening*-- one more time, because it is the crux of the Gospel (Good News) *There is NOTHING you can do to EARN God's love. God loves us all THE SAME, whether we go around murdering children or serve him as Pope. God (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) ?? In the way the LUGNet trademark device has beauty? That is, it's logically inconsistent, but pretty, in a decorative way? This and something David Low said got me thinking. Is it possible that all or part of the intellectual attractiveness (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) One could argue that God truly loves His children and so gives them the choice to accept or reject His love. In a way, that's a more mature and respectful love than simply saying "I love you so you're in, whether you love me or not." Moreover, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) So, so.. But I'm not talking about invalidating any "belief", I'm just talking about invalidating a "belief system" as a "system to bring high moral grounds for society". If any system can open to be abused and can be used by a person/group (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Well, ok, here's the question. Do humans truly have the ability to derive good on their own? Can humans, without God's help, truly be good? Or can we only act good simply by mishap or flawed thinking? When an atheist takes a homeless man into (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) You're completely correct, and it seems to me that such people often pick and choose which elements of The Bible the wish to practice, ignoring those passages they find inconvenient to their cause. (...) And that's the big problem--that the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Is your heaven like a roller coaster, so dangerous then that it needs rules to keep people out, because it's "unsafe" for them, who would qualify for the other brands of rides (merry go round, ferris wheel, and other rides)/heavens??? I'm a (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Nobody HERE ever does that, though. ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Well, there are Christians who claim that it doesn't matter what you do, if you are among the "elect", you've already got your ticket to heaven. Now I guess they can still claim that God is the force that motivates them to good, but so many (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) We're not haggling yet, and if we were, I'd still be aiming for 100%. :-) ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: New LEGO factory inaugurated
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(...) Now thats a low blow... I don't particularly appretiate it either. Followups to .off-topic.debate Eric Kingsley (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) So you're aiming for 75%. I'm sure I can haggle you down a little further... Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I don't get the impression of this by just looking the entire history of human life on earth..:-) Selçuk (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: IP ( was Re: LP POINT 1
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(...) Yes, but your economy may be cooling - we have been at about that for a few years now. (...) Yep... and there are those in the UK who want us to join NAFTA and leave the EU :-/ (...) Yes, but in the UK/EU we are far less materialistic (I am (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Earning brownie points to get into heaven is self-rewarding, so I guess you are saying Christians are NEVER altruistic? (...) Yet your god sends people to Hell. "I love you, but go suffer for an eternity". No thanks. -- Tom Stangl ***(URL) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I don't think they hit to ground because of the lack of religion, but because they tried to force an unrealistic utopia as an economic model. In fact they hit the ground economically, not socially (although I should admit that economic (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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But YOUR god (assuming he exists) sets the rules, so even if a person goes to hell for their perceived sins, they go there because God made them, through the rules. God, if he truly loved his children, would allow ALL into heaven, regardless of (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) When I mentioned "impulses to do good, I was referring to atheists" Christians do good in response to God's love. God loves me, and so in joy I want to share this love with others. This is the Gospel, that God loves us all, and wants us to (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) So what? Is this well written part of the bible (or any other similar sentences from any other holy books) could avoid the above things and many others from being happened? As I know of, it just provide necessary tools to get support from (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Self-rewarding good-doing isn't by definition altruistic. (...) Christians certainly don't do good for fear of hell. Christianity 101: Saved by Grace. Nothing anyone can do can curry God's love-- it is unconditionally given. Christians do (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) This is what perplexes me about fundamentalist religion. Given that God is infinite and transcendent, how can any human claim to have perfect or privileged knowledge of God? How can anyone of faith actually be sure that he or she has found the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I can just see you as a child at the local amusement park: walking up to the roller coaster where the clown stands with his hand out saying if you're not this tall you can't ride the roller coaster. I can imagine little self-righteous ++Lar (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An interesting North American Election (was Re: Cdn Election Day)
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(...) Thanks for your great comparative civics tutorial Steve. I'm actually from Australia, and our system is fairly similar. I wasn't sure if you guys had some form of proportional representation (PR) like NZ and Germany for example, hence the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The god debate again... sigh (Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) You're right, religion in a generic sense will not necessarily bring out the best in people. I agree that it quite often brings out the worst. I am a bigger critic than anyone on the problems in Christendom, I could go on for hours about the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Do market based societies select for virtue? (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I was speaking mainly of communist/socialist governments that replace religion with the state. (...) I know what you mean, I spent 15 months in the Middle East and witnessed much of it first hand. (...) I like that you said, "if a person (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) No trap, I was laying one, and it worked. I'm a big eater, he couldn't handle my lunch. Besides, I was using a martial arts/fencing/military tactic of realizing a perceived weakness, telegraphing it to lure the opponent and then using it to my (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: An interesting North American Election (was Re: Cdn Election Day)
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(...) I'm sure you don't want the books of details that you probably realize could result from such a question, so I'll TRY to give you a brief over-view. (don't know how well I'll succeed) Our primary federal government body is Parliament. Like (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:G4urs9.L3A@lugnet.com... (...) Yep, I agree. Each individual has to come to this realization for himself or herself. Until its personal, no amount of convincing really helps. It may prompt them (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Hey, it stands to reason, what you need is a good satanist. Why? Well, because god will forgive you, whereas the guy downstairs...well...he don't forgive! James (and a free lego brick to ID the book that comes from...it's SF) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Big Lar caught in his own trap (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I presume, confidently, that you refer to those who improve ourselves. Thanx, I'm glad you prefer my sort. :) One doesn't preclude the other. I believe I have been forgiven of quite a lot, but I also strive to continuously improve myself. This (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Larry Tells All... (was Re: Lego To Close Molding, etc.)
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(...) Lol! (...) [snip] (...) exactly. it's kinda like the chads thing (duck). all politics aside, it's probably quicker and cheaper to just eliminate everything "out of the ordinary" ASAP. Companies' waste volume in production no longer surprises (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: LP POINT 2
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(...) Quick answer, for closure. Under a property rights analysis, there is no right to sustenance, per se. There is a right to offer to trade for or pay for or ask for charitiable sustenance but no requirement that anyone in particular actually (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: IP ( was Re: LP POINT 1
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(...) Happiness is hard to measure, especially in the aggregate. GDP is at best a wildly imperfect stand in, but I'm not sure there are better ones. (c.f. economic theory of law that you turned me on to) (...) Not sure what to make of that, not even (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Tenuous in what way? Were you saying it's logicially unsupportable, or were you threatening fire and brimstone? The latter? If your (stipulated to exist for the sake of this sentence) god sends me to hell, he's not worthy of my worship. I will (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Larry Tells All... (was Re: Lego To Close Molding, etc.)
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(...) Who may take umbrage at being ranked second in any pantheon, mind you. :-) (...) Thank you for your speculation, Frank. It may be extrapolation from insufficient information, and therefore derided by the rude, but I have my reasons for (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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Inasmuch as I'm reluctant to enter into discourse with an Eric... (...) Ah! The watered-down form of Pascal's Wager--don't get me started! 8^) Dave! (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Saw it. Nope, I'm agnostic. Not as rewarding as being an atheist, because maybe I'm being good just to hedge my bets. :-) /Eric McC/ (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Which leads me to ask if you are an atheist? If you are I'd ask you to consider the tenuousness of your position. (see my thoughts on that in another thread of this...) -Jon (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Larry Tells All... (was Re: Lego To Close Molding, etc.)
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Suzanne D. Rich wrote: See, there is a god and we have invoked his holy desciple... :-) :-) :-) :-) (...) <snip> (...) I think I was saying about the same as you are. I definitely agree, the factory floor and K-8s are two different things. The only (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) An atheist believes there is no God. An atheist may have other beliefs, such as "people are intrinsically good" or "I am intrinsically good." Also, doing good as an atheist could be more self-rewarding than doing good as a Christian. An (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) That's fine on a personal level, but you have to recognize that faith, evidence(1), and personal experience will never prove His existence to anoter person, as long as that person is objective and subjects your assertions to critical analysis. (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Dave Schuler" <orrex@excite.com> wrote in message news:G4uqp9.HKB@lugnet.com... (...) proving (...) exist, (...) And I believe that God can, in the form of his interaction here on earth being attributed to him properly. I just haven't studied the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) There's a difference, though, between understanding something and proving it exists. Even if a thing is infinite, if it has any perceptible interaction in the universe it can (in theory, at least) be proven to exist, even if we have no hope of (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Well, it is still possible for a god to have had a tangible effect, in that it is possible that our universe is just an incredibly good simulation running in another universe. Then "god" would be the programmer who wrote the simulation... Of (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:G4unI7.76u@lugnet.com... (...) My misteak (is that how you spell it? ;o) ), you're right. (...) pick (...) conservation (...) Agreed. (...) me) (...) ...where I say a potential (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Larry Tells All... (was Re: Lego To Close Molding, etc.)
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(...) Sorry to butt in, but I'm having this uncomfortable feeling at reading speculation over K-8's. (I assume the above is speculation.) It just doesn't fit with my experience in TLC's distribution of K8's. I'm no authority on the subject, but TLC (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Er, I think you mean "cannot be EXPLAINED naturally". Proven naturally has no meaning. And I'd add "and there is no hope of ever doing so" here, else you're toast. (...) Add "verifiable" here, twice, else you're toast. (...) Because without (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: IP ( was Re: LP POINT 1
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(...) It appears I have dug myself a hole. GDP is not a measure of happiness – it is only a measure of the domestic output of a nation. If wealth were uniformly distributed, then it could be used as a measure of happiness – but it is not in the UK, (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I agree there. The struggle, if you will, between Science and Christianity is that very drive for emperical evidence to back something up (continuing to play the assumption made by John, even though I believe that God does exist and he is the (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Idunno, my mother was a Darwinfish-carrying physical anthropologist who believed in God. Bruce (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I wouldn't, at least not completely. Finite systems can model infinity, categorise it, draw meaningful conclusions about it, etc. They can even simulate things related to some parts of it. I "comprehend" infinity. But most of these infinities (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: IP ( was Re: LP POINT 1
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(...) <emphasis> (...) </emphasis> But, oh what the heck... (...) Not sure it's an apples to apples. I can argue it the other way round... rather than the 4% of GDP difference giving you free healthcare, free education and welfare support... (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Given your assumption, I would certainly agree that the infinite is incomprehensible by the finite. (...) Don't put yourselves (as Christians) down; intellectuals and scientists, I imagine, would believe through Faith just like any other (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Larry Tells All... (was Re: Lego To Close Molding, etc.)
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(...) I have seen some critical analysis which says that it is much better to have a lay-off several weeks before Christmas than right after. The incident which evoked the analysis I read was the Wizzards of the Coast layoff several years ago. Some (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I don't have any reason to doubt that Jesus the man existed, and I don't think that's what Larry's suggesting, either. And I've heard the witness-evidence-tha...p-in-court argument before. Similarly, I've heard it asked why we (skeptics and/or (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian debate in danger of pollution (was Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) Highlight above, "unknown". (...) I would argue that neither you nor Lar can prove something to the other. Neither of your arguments shall have bearing on the other. Lar won't accept your evidence, and you won't accept his argument that he (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: IP ( was Re: LP POINT 1
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(...) I suppose I approve of the system I work in - I don't profit from it though. (...) This reminds me of an article I was reading the other day. In 1997 USA tax at ~30% of GDP (1999 GDP / cap = $34k) whilst in the UK is was at ~34% (1999 GDP / (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: FS-Pirate & Town Sets Mint In Sealed Boxes/Pack
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(...) Actually he just admitted it. From dictionary.com: stub·born (stbrn) adj. stub·born·er, stub·born·est. Characterized by perseverance; persistent. :-) Selçuk (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less?
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(...) I didn't notice anyone point this out, but here's the problem I have with that. Where's the humanity? What happened to free will? If the impulse to do good comes from God, does that mean that humans are incapable of wanting to do good on their (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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