 | | Voluntary, private discrimination (Was: Disparicies in Sentencing)
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<37D6918F.6EADE205@aeieng.com> <37D720C5.F27FD776@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Amen. It just raises my ire when someone is forced into some action because some First Amendment Nazis (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Disparicies in Sentencing WAS:(Misperceptions of America)
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Thanks for the clarification Scott. So it's fair to say you don't support different sentences or discrimination. That's good. (1) Going a bit farther, how do you feel about DWB? I kind of have a problem with it. I don't think that police should be (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) Who's supposed to be fielding this one? Absolutely. (Unless you take the squishy we're all part of society and you owe your existence to the government philosophy - then you're just being compensated differently.) --Chris (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHpz9y.Mq4@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Simon, thanks for taking the time for this. (...) I have heard (but not verified) that US tax code is so large and (...) (25 years ago, 9-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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David Eaton wrote in message ... (...) that (...) posts (...) Actually, the original posts were about what is a life affirming set of morals (the one Larry accepted when it was presented to him). It took me awhile to explain it to you, and if you (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: History as hearsay (was Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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David Eaton wrote in message ... (...) heretofor (...) in (...) says (...) questions (...) as (...) a (...) history (...) what (...) to (...) "real" (...) content to (...) then (...) if we (...) I think it would be nicer if we could say our country (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: History as hearsay (was Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <37D64FD8.BBF4EB4B@v...er.net>... (...) I quite agree, and I know we all have different morals, but some are better than others. I don't think just because a moral is right to you that it makes it right (which is (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Moz (Chris Moseley) wrote in message ... (...) voluntary. (...) However, (...) rendered in (...) to (...) of (...) necessary (...) I (...) I agree with you, that whether you are giving money voluntarily to a church or involuntarily to a government, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Disparicies in Sentencing WAS:(Misperceptions of America)
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Due to Larry's e-mail, and others confusion in this issue, here is where I stand. 1) If there is (I have seen a few, going either way) inconsistencies in sentencing, based on color, there should be none. I favor reform in terms of sentencing (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: History as hearsay (was Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) Where is it going... hmmm.... the basic arguments (forgive any misquotes, John D): Q: Are actions good solely by their consequences, or is there an underlying morality which judges them regardless? A: I think we're more or less agreed at this (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) You understood everything I was saying! Woo hoo! (sorry to sidetrack, I've been worried that my points were unclearly written-- I feel like I've repeated and refined what I've said a whole bunch of times in this thread) Anyway, on to a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) I have, and I said in a few posts yesterday, thank you very much, that there should not be any dissimilar sentencing. It should all be the same, regardless of skin color, etc. Nor do I favor any lesser sentencing because you are a minority. Do (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) My original point was to figure out your stance on morality. Your initial posts seemed rather ignorant of charity, and focused on justice solely. More specifically, on consequences of actions. Anyway, yeah, the point modified itself. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Scott, I'm really sorry about this, but you're all wet. I will not debate you about the incidence of crime among various groups. It IS higher for some groups than others. Where there is an issue is in the fact that the sentences given out seem to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Folks, I don't care why. Why is for endless arguments about how bad people have it, and how we need more money, more programs, etc. I don't do criminal activities, because I know it is wrong. If it is not being taught to people, minorities, etc. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D44B67.BC996AD6@voyager.net> <FHpz7x.MKI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Good, I am glad that you feel that way, it's a stance I've sort of started to take without getting a lot of (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | History as hearsay (was Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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I'm reading it... Not sure where it is going, but I will say this. Morals are relative only to the extent that some are better than others. I hold any morality that says it is OK to violate rights as inferior to one that does not. As to history (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D5BF19.20DE42FA@uswest.net> <FHqnK9.4Dt@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) More or less. If I live in a society where I must be a member of a church, or where I am discriminated against (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D509B5.92E4ADBC@voyager.net> <FHqI70.MIy@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Ah. OK. Well, that's putting the pieces together rather differently than I intended, but I see where you're (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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John Neal <johnneal@uswest.net> wrote (...) Within the terms of that debate, yes, I believe in the truth of my statements. My understanding is that from Larrys perspective anything at all the requires he give anything to anyone is theft. If a gift (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarianism again.
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Scott Edward Sanburn <ssanburn@aeieng.com> wrote (...) There is no constitution, New Zealand is a monarchy. The bill of rights actually uses the word "equitable" (from memory) and of course the idea of a free country is at the heart of our desire (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) Unfortunately neither can I. I retract the statement. Moz (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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John DiRienzo <ig88888888@stlnet.com> wrote (...) There is no difference *in princliple*, provided that membership is voluntary. This situation has only recently arisen for both countries and churches. However, the difference is that taxation can (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) Your comment that you have the right to speed because you can afford to compensate my family should you kill me. You became silent when I asked whether I could refuse to sell the item in question. I (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Scott Edward Sanburn wrote in message <37D56E92.EE6C3ADF@a...ng.com>... (...) ground (...) IGNORE Play it again Sam..:-) (...) to (...) I don't think he intented this in anyway. (...) because (...) You're just stepping on the fact... But, DO you (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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David Eaton wrote in message ... (...) on (...) don't (...) it (...) and (...) migrated. (...) in (...) OK, your original point was to show that morally we could decide which person deserved the bread, and I pointed out that it is very hard, with (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Car pollution[ was: Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep]
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Found this unsent message - forgive me if I already sent it... Simon Robinson wrote in message ... (...) I agree, I don't blame the legislation of this type on the conservatives, either! I also don't attribute the passing of such laws to people (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Just wondered if anybody was reading the little philosophy subthread that David and I have been slowly working on. Still, I find it useless to debate religion (on a hypothetical level of course), and friends really shouldn't. And, yes, there are (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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John Neal wrote in message: (...) stupidity? well, its good debate material, whether a troll or not. (...) prohibition (...) Chris, the (...) your (...) That may or may not be the core of Christian belief - depends who you ask, but every church puts (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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All right John, Here is Moz' original post that I was referring to: (...) John Neal wrote in message <37D5C0DC.FDA80880@u...st.net>... (...) steal (...) Based on what he said, which relates to the traditional role of the church (which may have (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHpz9y.Mq4@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) big snippage here but: 1. How about the death tax (taxation (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) But Larry appears to be making what to me look like some rather strange connections. Leaving aside the question of the morals of taxation - which I'll comment on below, we have: 1. I have consistently argued that it is right for Governments to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: Larry, (...) (I rearranged your posting to stick this first as I thought that was important) I'd like to emphasize that on that score the feeling is mutual. You've provided a very valuable service. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Forgot this: [1] Lar notwithstanding;-) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) How can you call a gift stealing? (...) They are different. Churches collect money *voluntarily* to assist those in need. The gov collects money whether you like it or not. If I don't contribute to the offering plate, so what? If I don't (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Moz (Chris Moseley)" wrote: Do I dare dignify such a troll with a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Well, I think the *idea* might come from the thought that, if I'm going to believe something, it had better be right! So it's more "we have the answers as revealed to us" and less "we are right, and you are wrong" Because to tell you the (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) !!?? What a surprisingly ignorant thing to have heard you say John! How do you "know" religion is fiction? Do you have proof? Evidence? I'd say that coming from one who holds up the scientific method so earnestly, it sounds rather (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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<37D579AE.FA77EFEA@aeieng.com> <37D57E07.BB4E2546@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From one point of view, I see two people facing each other and having a conversation. On the surface they seem to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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<FHoBwu.8wJ@lugnet.com> <FHp4oz.Gny@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I appreciate everything you've said, David, but I have a question. If (...) (25 years ago, 8-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) Yes, it matters. (...) It's simple in a homogenous culture. But our society is anything but homogenous. I'm not saying that crime is forced on anyone. But we are all, to some degree, products of our environment. I am *NOT* saying to not punish (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) Like what? (...) I don't care what color they are. If they do the crime, pay the consequences, no matter what color of skin or what their ancestry is. (...) If they are there. (...) Lots of reasons. Why do people commit crimes? Why is the sky (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) What I'm saying is, is there are factors at work, probably unfair factors, which favor putting minorities under the syringe. They may be social factors, judicial factors, whatever. These need to be ferreted out and rectified. (...) But *why* (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Jeremy, (...) I have seen this argument many times, in many forms, thank you. I can ignore them know because the numbers do not tell the whole story. Just because there is a greater percentage of minorities committing crimes that have capitol (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) Ignorace is a *good* platform from which to argue. You'll never lose ground from there. (...) Ah, but the topic was not in changing punishment, but rather the startling disparagy in the demographics of execution. If I were more cynical, I (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Jeremy, (...) I don't look into race numbers and statistics too much, because a good deal of people look at it way too much, IMHO. I don't care what the numbers are, frankly, like I said before, I don't care what race or color, etc. you are, if you (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Capital Punishment: Race issues
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(...) That goes under the imperfect sentencing. I think all sentencing should be the same, regardless of race, color, etc. If it isn't, there is a problem and it should be dealt with in that manner. I am for equal punishment under the law. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) But don't you ever ask *why*?!? Jeez, what, are you happy with those numbers? (...) I'm so glad you asked. :-, Grab a chair, because this will take a while. I can't speak for anyone else, but I pick on the U.S. because I live there. I really (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) c /capitol/capital/ and... Per capita, yes. But that doesn't explain the disparity in sentencing. This is one where I am with the modern Liberals. There IS something wrong. I can't explain exactly why, I have my pet theories (one I like is the (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) That's just because it's too hard to form an intolerance committee for every single little issue that comes up. Methodists reserve committee-forming behavior for more important activities. Steve (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) But the topic does come up, regardless. I'm just a catalyst here... BTW, my name's in my .signature. (...) Different? Sure. Totally? Nah. Sure, I've lost someone to murder. I've lost someone to heart disease. I've lost someone to incredibly (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) Get close, get really, really close.... OK? Maybe <shrudder> there are more "minorities" committing capitol crimes than "majorities", whatever that means. (...) Is this a fact, is it somewhere on the web, or do you have references for actual (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) I can explain it for you, once we all agree upon the definition of "for". :-P It's a scary statistic that there are more, ahh, minorities on death row in the U.S. than there are, ahh, majorities. I'm hinting at the various social and economic (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) No prob. The point deviated slowly, I think, but basically it's just migrated. The point was morality underlying consequences, but that's moved elsewhere in the message. (...) Well, the actual question is more about who you would rather be... (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I didn't find that. but I did find THIS: Back on 12/10/98 I said: (...) While we were talking about stealing, (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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Sproaticus -> (...) Larry -> (...) Jsproat -> (...) I'll try a crack at defending Larry's point-- or at least making one of my own... I think the idea is that science is methodically verifiable. By employing methods of science, I can come to the (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Whats wrong with you? You seem to understand that the church does steal from those who belong to it (by choice, even), and you object about that. But you don't understand that governments do the exact same thing (some times in conjunction with one (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D3BBC5.77DE038A@eclipse.net> <FHow2F.3yM@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm skipping most of this for a more detailed comment later, perhaps... (...) but THIS is so outrageous that I have (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarianism again.
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(...) Moz, Can you tell me what part of the Constitution or the Bill of Rights that resides in, because I can't find it. You sound just like my sister. "We have a right to a living wage." Really? Where is that at in the Constitution or Bill of (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Please, people, maybe I don't catch this stuff, but paraphrasing and hinting on a subject where some people have no clue, I think you better state, clearly, what you are talking about. Man, it is like trying to dissect what Bill Clinton is lying (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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Christopher Weeks <clweeks@eclipse.net> wrote (...) Aha, but privately thinking something is different from publically stating it. Doing so crosses a threshold of accountability, and brings responsibility. On the one hand the statement does imply (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Uh, I was not mentioning someone race, Sproaticus, or whatever name you are! That is totally different. Have you lost someone to a murderer? Wouldn't you say your feelings were nuked, or devastated, or whatever term you want to insert! Get a clue! (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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David Eaton wrote in message ... (...) justification (...) based (...) finishing (...) nice, (...) wanna be (...) pauper? (...) (some (...) was a (...) a (...) OK, you've deviated from whatever we were discussing, but its still interesting to a (...) (25 years ago, 7-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D2DA5A.3FAA4509@voyager.net> <FHMnG6.30B@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I think Chris did a pretty good job of explaining why I do in fact consider everything when making decisions (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) Christ, (...) investigate (...) Hrmmm... Yes. Yes, in a very rough nutshell. I believe that the revelation stuff happened, personally. I have no idea what _The Refiner's Fire_ is (though I assume it's a book). This event is described rather (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D2CBB6.6257BB22@voyager.net> <FHLt83.Avr@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) According to _The Refiner's Fire_ Mormonism only exists because Joseph Smith, in New York state, was trying to (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D2DA5A.3FAA4509@voyager.net> <FHMnG6.30B@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I know this is Larry's argument, but why would you resent that? If Larry is risking his money and reputation, (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: I've had to largely pull out of this debate for a couple of weeks owing to quite a bit of urgent work from my publishers suddenly turning up - so I've currently got very little time to post. But (...) (25 years ago, 6-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) You and me both. Digress away. :-, But your typical Mormon-legislated morality comes from overzealous members, not from the church itself. And the majority of the moralizing happens not in Salt Lake Valley, but in Utah Valley, home of BYU. Now (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D2CBB6.6257BB22@voyager.net> <FHLt83.Avr@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) That, right there, is one of the reasons I like the LDS better than some. Many sects, or at least their (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) I cannot personally prove the golden plates to you, for I do not posess them. Nor would I casually exhibit them if I did. Responsibility for these plates were transferred from Moroni to Joseph Smith by the Lord for a specific reason. The end (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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<37D1426A.8407B33E@voyager.net> <37D2A877.51DDB8B5@eclipse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Well, in the BOM there is a claim that gold plates were handed down. So put them on display and let (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Latter Day Saints (was:Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color))
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(...) What's any more nutty about the BOM than about (the rest(?)) of the Bible? Tales are told of magic happenings that a careful analysis of history doesn't support in both, right? (...) I said much the same thing a while back about the LDS, but (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) spend (...) Hold that thought... (...) I'm probably getting in over my head here, as I am not as well-read on this subject as I probably should be, but are the Founding Fathers within your web of trust? Several of them are reputed to be very (...) (25 years ago, 5-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarianism again.
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<37CD5AB2.72BA98B6@voyager.net> <FHJ1Ao.D6D@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Simon made a sweeping statement that "economics" had said X. I merely showed that not all economics did say X. (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarianism again.
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I'm on slippery ground here and I think I may trip myself up, as we have guests coming over and I only have a few mins. Forgive me for not interspersing.... To the points raised about the poor. I don't think Mike's thesis is that there will not be (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <37D027DB.AB97ECF8@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Flattery will get you anything, big fella. :-) (...) As I said it's not required that I personally verify (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) How many gods do I keep in front of me, you mean? One. Well, okay, there are my vices... :-P I keep one world-making god and several world-destroying wanna-bes in front of me. I'm trying to keep the devastation to a minimum. I'm a member of (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <37D027DB.AB97ECF8@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) It sounds pretty clearly like you are an adherent to at least two religions (given your definition). Out of (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarianism again.
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) You and me agree on that. I'd like to see all countries stop subsidising big business, especially the USA which seems to be much more attached to the idea than anyone else. But you seem to have the USA (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarianism again.
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) .. (...) Larry, heed thyself. Or is simple contradiction permitted? (...) The telephone system, specifically the local loop. For the purposes of argument it will be easier if we restrict this to (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarianism again.
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote (...) So tell me, how do we stop them taking what is ours by brute force, or simply degrading our environment by dying in it? Even if you don't have welfare you need some way to stop homeless people coming to (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Sproaticus <jsproat@io.com> wrote (...) I would not descibe it as "funny", myself. But then I live in a country where genocide is legal. Not just legal, in fact, but government policy. Sorry, I meant "not current government policy, but definitely a (...) (25 years ago, 4-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(This wording took me a day to figure out. If I'm going to have Larry spend his time countering what I say, I'd better say something good. ;-) (...) Oops. :-P I concede your point. Cold fusion was a bad example of the failing of the scientific (...) (25 years ago, 3-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) It's funny how, when the topic of state executions comes up, so does the word "black". Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 3-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Nah, the spider couldn't have been hit by gamma rays, or Peter Parker would have turned green! Steve (25 years ago, 3-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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(...) Nothing is perfect, but I for one am glad when a person, who has been tried, and has appealed, is never again going to blacken someone's live by killing or raping a loved one. Scott S. (25 years ago, 3-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CEC4AB.11CB1C2F@voyager.net> <FHGBvC.2AF@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Eaton wrote: <faith explanation> Ah, OK. (...) OK again. I'd turn it around. A religion may or may not have a (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) :) (...) I tend to agree. Mostly semantics. However, I'm used to calling it "faith" just to cover myself from getting into the whole "what is real?" argument. As I said, some existentialist can come along and say: "You just THINK you've got a (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CE909B.EB040221@voyager.net> <FHFyw9.5nI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not to be argumentative, but... :-) (...) This may be semantics, but I just don't see it as "faith". We are reasoning (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Ok, so it sounds like your definition of religion is something along the lines of: "a set of beliefs which are taken as true by faith, where these beliefs are not submitted as needing any sort of verification" Does that sound ok? (...) Well, (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CE848C.90906C8C@voyager.net> <FHFsB1.J0L@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David: One could say that the essence of a religion is to take something on faith (else it is a philosophy or moral (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) I saw this, and got intreuged... Maybe this has been covered in another thread of this debate (LMK if so), but I have a question... What defines a religion? Is it having faith in an ultimate source? If this kind of faith defines a religion, I (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CDCE45.78EA965D@eclipse.net> <slrn7srq48.kau.jspr...is.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I trust the scientific method because I personally have conducted experiments, made predictions, and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CDCE45.78EA965D@eclipse.net> <slrn7srq48.kau.jspr...is.io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) OK, I like to believe that I'm always open to being corrected. Help me to test God's existence and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The Road to Atheism (Was Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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Wow , same style of thinking..:-) Just check out my comments on the first religion debate: (URL) Hey friends, do you ever think about this?..All of the religions has their own types of ceremonies (I can't find a better word) and beliefs, which are (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Yah, well, that depends on who you talk to. (...) But you can't discount it. Conspiracies do happen. But I don't think it would help my case if I were to argue this one! :-, (...) This is a mistake. You have no real reason to trust my word (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CD2A57.50CEFE70@eclipse.net> <37CD66C3.8C44BCAF@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) When I reread this, it sounded like I meant to be suggesting that you don't know jack about science, and (...) (25 years ago, 2-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) The first one: logic exists in its own right. It's not something we created or invented, but rather something we discovered. Pure logic (as in, say, DeMorgan's Theorem, for instance) existed long before humans ever used it, and it works (...) (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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<37CD2A57.50CEFE70@eclipse.net> <37CD66C3.8C44BCAF@io.com> <37cd75df.275331198@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) LOL And they ripped apart Peter Parker's social life too! Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 1-Sep-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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