 | | Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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After formal running the MOTM contest for a month, I've becomed concerned with the fairness of the contest. In response to my concerns, I'd like to make the following changes to the rules for MOTM in order to level the playing field. - All (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad, lugnet.cad.dev, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) One minor thing. L3P's default view that most people are used to is equivalent to -cg30,45,0. I really think the latitude of 30 is preferable to the latitude of 45 for most models. --Travis Cobbs (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Just to point out - this discussion is only about the Model of the Month. The Scene of the Month contest would not be change. This would help sharpen focus of MOTM on the actual LDraw model, and SOTM would focus on composition, rendering (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) clip (...) I can understand your concern as to shift the focus more towards the modeling side of the process, yet am concerned that it seems as if the rendering process will be come almost an afterthought if your suggestions are followed. (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) If you want to focus on presentation, then Scene is the contest for you, that's the idea behind this idea. Leveling the playing field via automation encourages everyone to focus on the model. We DON'T want someone to win because they had (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) If you feel that POV rendering gives too many degrees of freedom, why not define MOTM as L3LAB, Ortographic, renderings. Then there's no discussion of landscape, sky, Anton Raves' parts, etc. etc. L3LAB rendering also shows the construction of (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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hello all, My compliments to Orion and his efforts to make the MOTM contest more fair. But I do wonder why there is a need for this. Have there been doubtful submissions in the past? My biggest puzzle however is the copyight issue. Steve, in reply (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) While I understand the desire to have all models publicly available, I respect the authors desire to keep his/her efforts out of the public domain. A great analogy of this is that you can go a museum and look at an exhibit, you can even take (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) It not so much that models are winning because they're rendered better, it's that I feel some entries are being overlooked because they look "worse". To me, this seems unfair to the beginner who, while having great modelling ideas, hasn't yet (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) While I was at work, I thought of another great reason to switch to DAT code enties: instructions on how to build the model can be made available if the auther allows. There are quite a few MOTM entries that I'd love to build but can't because (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I think this analogy is not so great. The reason why we can't take things home from a museum is that things there are unique and in a museum more people can come see it. In the virtual world it's rather the other way around: things are not (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I still would like to respect the author's choice not to have the raw DAT code posted, it is after all his/her property. -Orion (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Agreed. -Tim (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I agree (strongly) with Orion here. While I'd love to have copies of other people's LDraw files when voting for the contest, ultimately the decision to make the source of a model public should remain up to the author. -Tim (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I was thinking, what if someone submitted a model team style MOC or an even larger Technic MOC, say a truck and they had added a very detailed crane behind the cab, from the rear view it could end up quite small and possibly obscured by the (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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--snip-- (...) BEFORE this topic went public, there was discussion (within LDraw) about submitions from indiviudals that might later on want to make the models commercially avaliable. By submitting their LDraw files and making them public their (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, FTX)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) All I have to add is a 'me too' to Tim's thought. I'll never pay for a copyrighted .dat file but that doesn't mean that people don't have the right to keep the files they make private. Not to sidetrack further, but the matter becomes nastily (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Models can be copyrighted for different reasons, like: 1. They are commissioned commercially 2. They are sold by the creator 3. They belong to a larger copyrighted work (i.e. a book) While I respect copyrights (it comes with the age, it (...) (21 years ago, 4-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I agree with this in spirit. Yes, bring the attention back to the models. However I do have some alternative ideas, or at least variations on the ideas presented. Initially I thought the best way would be to make the dat files available so one (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I agree with your ambition. It makes good sense to let MOTM focus strictly on the models and let SOTM cover more broader aspects of presenting models. (...) Makes good sense. And I would prefer that we insist that the submissitted files can be (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I think this is an unreasonable restriction. I'd be interested in understanding why this is something that should be insisted on. In the offline discussions prior to presenting this proposal and elsewhere in the thread, there seem to be a (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I know. (...) Because learning more about what we can do with the LDraw format (IMO) is one of the aims of the contest. And if the files aren't published we don't learn much. Making sure we are allowed to publish the DAT/MPD files also means (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I looked here: (URL) and here: (URL) I didn't see that as an explicitly stated goal. I may have missed it somewhere else though. (...) I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps slightly less than if they are. I think there are lots of learning (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Well. We may have forgotten to write it down, but I remember it as one of the ideas, when we originally started MOTM (and I wrote the first two versions of the software for MOTM/SOTM). (...) It is kind of hard to arrive at consensus during (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I agree with Larry about this issue. I consider imposing a restiction like this to be both excessively exculsionary and extremely petty. -Orion (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) OK, I'll accept that and agree that it's a goal of the contest. Going forward though, I think we're still suffering from not having formal organization in place, in an ideal world this proposal would have passed through the steering committee (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I agree with Jacob. Also, the discussion prior to this post doesn't really matter - a decision wasn't made in that discussion, so what people who participated in it thought is really irrelevant. If someone chooses not to participate in the (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) The loss is the chance for us to see the creative effort of another and possibly be inspired by it. The fact that this has become the central issue of my proposed changes flabbergasts me. It takes absolutly no effort on our part to honor an (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Agreed. -Tim (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I found this question somewhat surprising, frankly. (...) I'm hoping that it only appears to be the central issue because the rest of the proposal has met with general agreement and that if this issue can be resolved, it will be speedily (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) To which post? Your post? (...) All the rest of the thread before your post is irrelevant? I'm not sure that's what you meant to say, you may want to consider a rewording to clarify. (...) I disagree. While they may not have been the decision (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Let's please make this explicitly clear: It is then all right to use the contest as a means to advertise a commercial model or a commercial product based on the model? This is a glaring pitfall if sources are not requested. I thought it would (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) If the model has commercial ties before or during the contest then I might (note the word might) have a problem with the submission. In my opinion, the reasoning behind an author's decision to keep the source private is irrelevent and not the (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) So you wouldn't have a problem with someone saying (on their e-shop) "buy the instructions to build this winner of the official Ldraw.org MOTM contest winner"? I would. (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) limit the submissions from those who are unwilling/unable to install the specified program on their machine. This is why I liked Larry's idea to submit the DAT code instead and to have the contest coordinator do the renders. This way, if the (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Why? If they don't want to publish the DAT, they can still enter the Scene categrory, because that's all you get without the DAT file, one view of the model (AKA a scene). My personal favorite part of lugnet is clicking on the DAT links and (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) What's preventing people from doing this now (for both contests)? -Orion (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Nothing. That doesn't make it right though. And as part of the proposed change (which I do like a lot, btw!), we have a chance to fix this as well. (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) It seems as though my first point was missed entirely. The presentation is as crucial to the model as the model itself. The first example I would like to use comes from my profession- design competitions. Rules for submissions in almost all (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I would too, IF they weren't the original author. And making the dat public enables that sort of behaviour far too easily. Hence my aversion to it. On the other hand, if they were the author, I think it's perfectly fine. If your model is good (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I think you're signing yourself up for a lot of work but it's a terrifically nifty idea! (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I don't think it will fix much. There will still be nothing to prevent people from selling kits or high quality posters. Since this issue is only partially addressed by making the source public, I don't think changing the rules of the MOTM (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Nah, the work is easily automated. -Orion (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Several, actually. (...) I think it is an issue, and worse, I think it highlights an underlying issue of larger import. In an ideal world the Steering Committee would either have given Orion authority to organize the contest as he sees fit, or (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Hmmm, now that you mention it, I do recall something of yours up for a vote. Did you submit a model, or just scenes? Did you ever submit as a model something you were selling? And hey, do we have archives of the old entries? (...) I wouldn't (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) You're talking about a different medium. Not everyone has the 21 inch, high resolution monitor required to make complex or intricate models look good when rendered. The use of pictures meant to be displayed on a typical computor monitor tends (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Scenes, I guess, as you would think of them now, but some (all?) of them may have been submitted prior to the MoTM/SoTM split. But I've got one in mind for MoTM right now, and I choose MoTM because I think it would be poorly served to be in a (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I was, and still am intending to do exactly this, enter Motm and sell instructions for the MOC. I hope to win MOTM and use the forum to generate publicity. I don't see any problem with this. My MOC is quite large and complicated and I've spent (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> wrote in message news:Hr0Mxq.1qoL@lugnet.com... [ ... snipped ... ] (...) understanding (...) discussions (...) to be (...) necessary. I too think this is an unreasonable restriction. It has been a while (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) How do you feel about requiring the LDR file in order to generate standardized pics, but keeping the publishing of the LDR file itself optional? Would that also prevent you from submitting? (...) I don't buy that analogy. It's not your (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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--snip-- (...) Not completely true. Orion's original post was to get ideas/feedback on his proposed changes. In the end it will be up to him to decide how he sets up the MOTM rules. Why? Simple, this decision is not up to a committee! Case in point (...) (21 years ago, 5-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, FTX)
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(...) Well that wasn't just me. Steve and I had discussed it for some time and had wanted to move in that direction. The change actually got a bit of help from Michael Lachmann who asked, and Steve and I gave a thumbs up, then others followed suit. (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, FTX)
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(...) I am not so keen on it, it sort of smacks of potential discrimination against entries that choose not to do so. If we are going for a level playing field let's get completely level. (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) But not allowing it discriminates against larger or more detailed entries. Take a look at the December models. There's no way to see all the details of two of the models without the LDR file. You're just leveling the field in your favor (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Well, more kudos to Orion for opening the discussion then, even if it got off-topic. I have not changed my views on the matter, but at the same I have certainly gained insight into the mindset of other community members. At the end of the day, (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, FTX)
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(...) It would seem like you are defending here your right to sell your models *over* the rights of others to share theirs. Granted, this only applies to a very specific instance (MOTM contest), not the community as a whole. But I still can't agree (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I hope not. It's certainly not my overt intent! I think sharing's great, if you want to share. I just don't want to see authors put in a position where they are forced to share either to participate at all, or in order to be on an equal (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) of course not. Prior to this thread being posted on lugnet. [snip] (...) Opinions voiced in a private discussion ARE irrelavent once the discussion goes public. If the owners of the opinions want to share them, they're welcome to do so (and (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) But entries that are displayed as picture only WILL, by definition, have a diminished effect. It's similar to the difference between seeing a picture of a model as opposed to holding it in your hand. Of course that the model taht allows me to (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Precisely my point, and precisely why putting them on an uneven footing will diminsh (the number of) entries. Better to have a level playing field, one way or the other, and better to set that field to maximise the number of entries. (...) All (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I guess I just disagree with you there :) I think it's better to have a better contest, and perhaps lose a few entries of those who want to sell their models. The increased quality of the interface is worth it, imo. (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) That's unjustified (as in, you haven't justified that view, merely stated it) and dismissive and not really a good attitude to take, in my view. (...) um, 6 out of 17 (see (URL) ) isn't really "mostly". It might be a plurality but it's way (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) How about three contests: SotM, MotM and LDR file of the Month? (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Hey, there's a nifty idea. Further, the FoTM (if structured to encourage explanation of techniques and so forth in the writeup) could end up being awarded to a file that didn't necssarily make a spectacular display but that did demonstrate (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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With 64 messages in 4 days, the discussion regarding by proposed changes is good. I'm posting this message to refocus the discussion and tie all the fragments together. Here's a point by point breakdown of my proposal and some thoughts about the (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) The one thing that I would like to see, is that if the author agrees, have the DAT available during voting. I think that would allow better access to the models, and also motivate more people to actually try installing LDraw, which in turn can (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I agree whole heartedly with Orion on this one. Just because I submit a model for a contest, should not mean that I give up ownership of the model. I'm pretty sure that I would give away the DATs for any models that I submit, but I'd like that (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I could even submit LPub or LSynth source code...... this is getting rather silly. I think it needs to be restricted to DAT/MPD format files. Within that scope I really like the idea. Kevin (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) Don, I thought about this for a while and have decided to retract my positive swing on this. The whole, dat required or not discussion is somewhat moot IMHO. For a given complete physical model there are only so many reasonable ways the model (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I agree. I like Orion's last proposal that allows for DAT/LDR/MPD to be available along with the views. If people don't want to share, and it diminishes their ability to win, that is their choice. A highly superior model without DAT/LDR/MPD (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, FTX)
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(...) I think you really are on to something now... The various instruction creator/authors all have their own styles, although some authors are similar in some areas to some other authors, you still can often tell who did which instructions if (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.inst)
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(...) Ouch! That hurts. Did you bump your head or something? (...) I think you're missing the point. With an LDR file I can move the arms and legs of a Mech to see what it looks like in different poses. I can spin the gears of a robot even if I (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.inst)
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(...) Actually Don, I agree with all those points and am in favor of authors having the option to post their DAT/LDR/MPD files along with the images. My point is that within the scope of a completed model, having a contest on how the model is (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.inst, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) irrelevent. (...) Kevin (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.inst, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I agree. I also percieve this as a great catalyst for invention of new techniques and styles. (...) Raising the bar is a good thing. (...) Kevin (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.inst)
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(...) I agree entirely with Orion here. And I also think that making the LDR file available for the winning entry would be a great idea, but *only with the permission of the entrant.* I recommend it be strongly encouraged. (...) [snip] (...) I (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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(...) I got the point, but I'm not completely convinced. Anyhow, I really only suggested the LDRotM contest because I'm afraid the model sellers might be influential enough to eliminate even the *option* of publishing the LDR files in the MotM (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.inst, lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) The one problem I see here is that the contest allows unofficial parts (or unofficial versions of parts), which the coordinator might not have, and different submitters might want to use different versions of unofficial parts. The problem goes (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I second Lar, this is a great idea, Kevin. I'm excited that the topic of Building Instructions has gained popularity over the last year or so, with the release of LPub, launch of BIPortal, etc. This contest could serve to further promote the (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.inst)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Sounds fair enough. I for one would be unlikely to pick through the .ldr file for every entrant anyway, but it would be cool to get a closer look at the winning entry. (...) This is true enough, although I still can't see why a rendering (...) (21 years ago, 6-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Yes adding unoffical parts into the .mpd file is doable and it is being polite to due this if you are using unoffical parts and making your model public. -AHui LDraw Help Desk (URL) (21 years ago, 7-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw, FTX)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Are they available on the net? According to the Wayback Machine (URL) were once at (URL) but that link is dead now. Don (21 years ago, 7-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) Here's the correct link: (URL) (21 years ago, 7-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I think this is a moot point, but... The rule could be written so that a contributor must allow/license their work for publication on the contest website, for people to view/examine in relation to the contest, but not for further (...) (21 years ago, 8-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(URL) anyone have *any* feedback on these ideas? Orion? Please let me know (even in a private e-mail if you want) if you think these are viable alternatives or if they're totally not worth considering! I'd appreciate any comment! Thanks, --Ryan (URL) (21 years ago, 8-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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| | Re: Proposed changes to MOTM Submission guidelines
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(...) I still like the idea of all the renderings being the same with the same camara positions and 1-3 special views suggested by the author. -Orion (21 years ago, 10-Jan-04, to lugnet.cad.dev.org.ldraw)
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