Subject:
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Re: How many things need to stack up before we throw this jerk out?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:41:24 GMT
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Viewed:
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407 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote:
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Right so after Afganistan, Saudi Arabia was the only country that we can
actually prove did that.
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We know Saudis perpetrated it; whether they were government sponsored or
not is unclear.
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And yet the Saudi government has done nothing.
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Look, I don’t claim to understand everything that is going on in Saudi
Arabia. Do they sponsor terrorism? Maybe, but then why is OBL persona non
grata in the Kingdom? Perhaps the right sheik doesn’t know what the left
sheik is sponsoring. I don’t know, but I think our intelligence services are
actively trying to find out.
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The point is that there are actual links between the Saudi government and OBL.
There are no such links between OBL and Saddam.
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I tend to think not. OBL is a criminal in Saudi Arabia, and the
Wahabi sect of Islam is just as dangerous to their way of life as it is to
ours.
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Yeah cause dictatorships are a “way of life” we actually care about
protecting.
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We can agree to disagree here,
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So what is the basis of your disagreement.
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but I am still waiting for a cite to your
assertion about US aid to Palestinians compared to Israel.
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Yeah its only been cited practiclly every time the Israel vs. Palestine
subject comes up in off-topic.debate. Feel free to dig it up but I would
have expected you to have learned that fact already from reading those
posts.
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Honestly I have no idea what you are talking about. So I found this for you:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3054705.stm
Perhaps you could share what you are talking about.
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OK please read
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I mean the U.S. propaganda mass media make the public think they are in
danger so they can control them, fear mongers.
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What are you talking about here? US government propaganda, or mass media
propaganda, or are they in concert together? And who is doing the
controlling-- the US government or the mass media?
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One and the same.
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Huh? Quoting you from: http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=21525
“Does it surprise me that the Bush team fabricated half the story, no. Every
politican throughout history has done the same thing to garner public
support. Today in the world of mass media they can?t really get away with
stuff like that anymore.” So, Mike, are they with each other or not?
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Well the mass media passed on the propaganda didn’t they. They just happened to
“about face” when they know it is fake. How much do they think is real?
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If it is the Patriot Act that has your undies in a bunch, then I
respectfully submit that that is another debate topic, although a good one:
How does a free society protect itself against terrorism while preserving
free rights for all. It is a very difficult question to answer I will
freely admit, and I don’t necessarily defend the Patriot Act myself.
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Well so far we have done nothing substaintially different than before 9/11.
The Patriot Act is supposedly the answer. Which aslo happens to be the only
thing threating our “way of life.”
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Let’s suppose that the attack on 9-11 was actually a nuclear bomb
denotation. How would we have reacted differently than we did?
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We probably would have wiped out most of the middle east.
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I think you are just plain wrong in that assessment.
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Why?
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Because none of our leaders, even Democrats, are that crazy. It doesn’t make
any sense, doesn’t do any good, and doesn’t solve any problem.
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Sure it does. There would be no islamic jihad anymore.
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Oh gee I don’t know how about actually educating them about what democracy
is and such.
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What do you suppose we are doing over there?
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Stealing oil. What do you suppose we are doing over there?
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Not stealing oil. We are hanging around until the Iraqis are able to form a
stable democracy.
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And yet our effort is focused on securing oil fields.
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It is not as if there aren’t
1,000s of Iraqi expatriots who have been educated in the US and know all
about freedom and democracy.
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So where are all these people and why aren’t they fighting for freedom?
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Many have returned and have assumed positions of power. Trouble is, to the
native Iraqis they seem like US puppets. The whole thing is going to take
time.
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Afganistan might be a different story though...
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Why?
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Afganistan is less westernized and has fewer natural resources than the lucky
Iraqis.
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You must be joking. Many gladiator (and what not) movies were filmed in
Afganistan. Afganistan had a thriving film industry. They were probably the most
“modernized” Arab nation prior to the whole U.S./Soviet proxy war.
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You are correct that if he didn’t control a vast percentage of the world’s
oil fields, we wouldn’t have cared as much. We need that oil.
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No we don’t need it its just convenient.
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The Iraqi people need the money we pay them for that oil.
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I’ll believe it when I see the Iraqi people benefiting from it.
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It is actually in both our interests that that flow continues.
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Well so far its only been in our interests.
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I would belive that if we were actually trying to educate the people
rather than simply control and/or contain them. Really that is only a few
levels above what Saddam was doing.
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You are mistaken as to what our mission is in that country.
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I know what Bush said our mission was. I know what is actually happening.
Actions speak far louder than words.
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Anyways all of it is a scam, much like the whole Y2K “problem” was. It is
a method of keeping people in a state of fear. Not so much that they don’t
go about their daily routine, but enough to keep most of them from asking
questions. It is population control so the masses do not threaten those in
power. Actions speak far louder than words, you just have to pay
attention. The greatest threat to our country comes from our government
not some mysterious phantom “terrorists.” We are no safer from terrorist
attack today than we were 3 years ago but we are far more susceptible to
blatant violation of the constitution by government agencies and police.
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Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it sounds like
paranoia and conspiracy theories to me.
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So what do you think is wrong with my assesment? Simply stating that you
disagree doesn’t really provide any useful information to try and change my
mind.
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It is never my intention to change your mind.
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Really? I thought that was the whole point of discussing topics was to learn new
information and adapt ones beliefs to that new knowledge.
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I only seek to clarify positions. You have yours and I have mine.
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And yet you don’t actually provide me with any reason for your disagrement.
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You believe that the US
government has some secret policy of keeping Americans fearful, I do not.
Appearances can sometimes deceive, especially when viewed through biased
spectacles. We are all biased to some extent or another, and something that
may seem very logical to you might could be quite proposterous to me.
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Why does it seem proposterous to you? You have already told me you disagree, I
want to know why? How do you explain what has transpired then?
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It is
no coincidence that those who believe Bush should be run out of office are
either liberal or democratic, and by the same token those who believe he is a
great president are conservative and Republican. It’s boring partisanship
really.
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You must be joking. If I haven’t made it quite clear by now, I tend to be highly
conservative. Shoot, I voted for Bush because I felt he was the least
unqualified for the job and I still think Gore would have been worse. That does
not mean I am going to mindlessly accept whatever they say though.
-Mike Petrucelli
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