Subject:
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Re: jumping to conclusions
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 25 Apr 2002 11:54:42 GMT
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Viewed:
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1747 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > >
> > > Terrorism is *wrong* and *evil*, plain and simple.
> >
> > But yet, you refuse to condemn Israeli terrorism!
>
> What Sharon did *ALMOST 50 YEARS AGO* was wrong-- Israel itself is not proud of
> some of those early day policies.
Great! When will he go on trial? When will his victims be compensated? Given
Israel’s strong record in tracking down war criminals from WW2, it would be
hypocracy if he was not put on trial would it not?
> But that was a long, long, time ago.
Indeed it was. But Sabra and Shatila were only in ’82. Or was that “*ALMOST
20 YEARS AGO*”? What about in ’86 when they were found to be shipping arms
to Iran? These are facts. We could move on to consider if what Israel is
doing in the occupied territories could be considered “terrorism”… but I
really doubt that would be productive.
> Times
> have changed, and so has Israel's policies. Citing events that occured almost a
> half century ago is not a very good argument to describe the present.
>
> The most outrageous act of terrorism I ever knew (until 9-11 of course) was the
> PLO kidnapping and butchering Israeli athletes in Munich in '68. The Olympics,
> for God's sake! What could be more horrible, than to take a cooperative event
> based on trust and understanding among nations and turn it into a world stage
> for murder! Explain *that* to a 7 year old kid. But I don't go tossing that
> stuff around. Well, until now.
Two points:
1) I do not support the PLO in any way.
2) How does that justify what Israeli forces done in ’53… i.e. 15 years
*before*?
What happened in ‘68 is nothing compared to what your countrymen have
sponsored in Northern Ireland. BTW: Read here about the involvement of the
IRA & Sinn Fein in training terrorists in central America:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1945000/1945289.stm
Read here about the $400000 IRA & Sinn Fein raised in New Your for a 911
charity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1633000/1633282.stm
>
> Or even acknowledge the
> > role of your own country in supporting terrorism.
>
> We fight terrorism. Ask Osama, if you can find the rock that that scum will be
> hiding under for the rest of his damned life.
1. Who trained him?
2. How many civilians have been killed trying to find him?
3. Whilst we are talking about the USA’s support for Islamic fundamentalist
groups... Are you familiar with the recent study by the Dutch government
into the massacre of 7000 civilians in Srebrenica? These are the words of
Richard Aldrich (Professor of Politics at the University of Nottingham):
“In the 1980s Washington's secret services had assisted Saddam Hussein in
his war against Iran. Then, in 1990, the US fought him in the Gulf. In both
Afghanistan and the Gulf, the Pentagon had incurred debts to Islamist groups
and their Middle Eastern sponsors. By 1993 these groups, many supported by
Iran and Saudi Arabia, were anxious to help Bosnian Muslims fighting in the
former Yugoslavia and called in their debts with the Americans. Bill Clinton
and the Pentagon were keen to be seen as creditworthy and repaid in the form
of an Iran-Contra style operation - in flagrant violation of the UN security
council arms embargo against all combatants in the former Yugoslavia.”
“The result was a vast secret conduit of weapons smuggling though Croatia.
This was arranged by the clandestine agencies of the US, Turkey and Iran,
together with a range of radical Islamist groups, including Afghan mojahedin
and the pro-Iranian Hizbullah.”
How do you feel about the USA helping Hizbullah?
“Arms purchased by Iran and Turkey with the financial backing of Saudi
Arabia made their way by night from the Middle East. Initially aircraft from
Iran Air were used, but as the volume increased they were joined by a
mysterious fleet of black C-130 Hercules aircraft. The report stresses that
the US was "very closely involved" in the airlift. Mojahedin fighters were
also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially
hazardous operations.”
“The UN protection force, UNPROFOR, was dependent on its troop-contributing
nations for intelligence, and above all on the sophisticated monitoring
capabilities of the US to police the arms embargo. This gave the Pentagon
the ability to manipulate the embargo at will: ensuring that American Awacs
aircraft covered crucial areas and were able to turn a blind eye to the
frequent nightime comings and goings at Tuzla.”
“Weapons flown in during the spring of 1995 were to turn up only a fortnight
later in the besieged and demilitarised enclave at Srebrenica. When these
shipments were noticed, Americans pressured UNPROFOR to rewrite reports, and
when Norwegian officials protested about the flights, they were reportedly
threatened into silence.”
So the bad guys the USA is now tracking down in the Balkans were actually
supported by the USA as recently as 1995!
Your friends in Israel were also involved in illegal operations in the region:
“the secret services of Ukraine, Greece and Israel were busy arming the
Bosnian Serbs. Mossad was especially active and concluded a deal with the
Bosnian Serbs at Pale involving a substantial supply of artillery shells and
mortar bombs. In return they secured safe passage for the Jewish population
out of the besieged town of Sarajevo. Subsequently, the remaining population
was perplexed to find that unexploded mortar bombs landing in Sarajevo
sometimes had Hebrew markings.”
Israel arms a power which was involved in alleged genocide of Muslims which
the USA helped arm and who are now wanted as they are “Islamic
fundamentalist”. What do you think of that? Does that make the USA “EVIL”.
Does that make Israel “EVIL”… or is the world just a crazy place!
>
> You claim all
> > Palestinian’s are "PLO terrorists".
>
> Not what I said. I clarified what I meant, but you apparently are so fixated on
> you little transitive axiom that you can't understand that. *sigh*
*sigh*. In that case, perhaps you would be good enough to answer the very
clear questions I present you in this post:
http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=16214
>
> You are unable to acknowledge the most
> > simple of truths about Israel.
>
> The most simple truth about Israel is that she has been under seige by Arabs
> since even before she was (legally, as mandated by the UN, because I *know* how
> much you love and respect the UN) a state. It seems to me that the party who
> can't seem to understand the most simple truth is the Arabs. Israel is real--
> accept it.
I do accept it. I also accept Israel is a belligerent nation. Do you?
> >
> > You’re not anti-terrorism, you are anti-Palestinian. "Terrorism" is a cover
> > for your rather suspect views. You lack credibility on this issue.
>
> That's your opinion, my friend, and you are entitled to it. I am anti-
> Palestinian *because* they support terrorists. We (US) would be doing the same
> thing Israel is doing if Israel somehow couldn't.
How can you be against a whole cultural identity. It is just as bad as being
anti-Jewish (IMO)
>
> The sooner the Palestinians learn this, the sooner there will be peace:
>
> You *cannot* win peace through terror. You can't. You won't. Period. It is
> irrelevant what your situation is. It will not happen. It cannot be *allowed*
> to happen, because that kind of behavior *must* never be rewarded. You have no
> "right" to inflict it. It is not "justified" resistance. It is evil, and it is
> wrong. And if you insist upon using it, then there is no place in a civilized
> world for you.
>
> If you disagree with that, then our discussion is over. You can disagree with
> it, but that's your business. To me, it is absolute and not open for debate.
You have conceded in this very post that Israel has engaged in acts of
terror in the past. You say that is “*ALMOST 50 YEARS AGO*”, so it should be
forgotten. But now you say “that kind of behaviour *must* never be
rewarded”. Can you explain this? It smells like hypocrisy to me!
Scott A
>
> -John
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: jumping to conclusions
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| (...) What Sharon did *ALMOST 50 YEARS AGO* was wrong-- Israel itself is not proud of some of those early day policies. But that was a long, long, time ago. Times have changed, and so has Israel's policies. Citing events that occured almost a half (...) (23 years ago, 24-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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