 | | Re: Finally--a use of public funding that I can really get behind!
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(...) Huh. Looks to me like a souped-up personality test indicating 'decisiveness'. There's $1.2m that they coulda done for free. Although granted that decisive people themsleves would be less convinced by such a study unless it had big numbers and (...) (21 years ago, 18-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Finally--a use of public funding that I can really get behind!
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(URL) I knew it!> Dave! (21 years ago, 18-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) A long while back, I was driving home one night and I just happened to be behind a rig hauling propane. Well, the light goes red up ahead of the rig so he starts putting on his brakes. The trailer full of propane starts skewing sideways so he (...) (21 years ago, 18-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Natural gas storage is a pretty serious one. Back a while ago, the Navy wanted to station some nuclear vessels in Boston. People were all up in arms about the dangers. Someone pointed out that the natural gas facility in South Boston was an (...) (21 years ago, 18-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) So now here we are a few days after the fact and a few things are becoming clearer (politically) To start (and I have no idea of this is going to be a one point rant or a many point rant so I'll start by saying 'to start', but there may be no (...) (21 years ago, 18-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) And what if something else accidentally happened, that changed the properties of the absorbing elements? Or what if a terrorist figured out a way to do the above? Or what if it's effectiveness changed drastically after the first 2 days? What (...) (21 years ago, 18-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Um...no. The reactor is called "TRIGA", and is located in Torry Pines, at General Atomic(s?) site. It CANNOT expode, or melt down. Physics dictate how anything will act, and it WILL NOT explode/PCI, no matter what you do with it- remove the (...) (21 years ago, 18-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Power links
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Thanks for the links, Chris. I've already read some diagonally, and intend to continue to do so over the week. I feel the need to clarify something, though: I am not against the use of any power source "per se", and declaredly for the highest (...) (21 years ago, 17-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Power links
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Oops, I meant to include links. Read the basics about fast breeder reactors at (URL) about the Integral Fast Reactor at (URL) and (URL) a brief nuclear energy FAQ with good links at (URL) about some considerations that go into when to and not to (...) (21 years ago, 17-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Power (was: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities)
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There's a bunch of stuff I wanted to comment on so I'm just rolling it together here. I'll also preface with the clear statement of my stance: I am part of cult of alternative energy. I have done the research needed to completely back off the grid. (...) (21 years ago, 17-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) I'm curious of what conditions you considered in your maths. (...) It is true that the consumption is greatly reduced at night time, which is not to say electricity is not produced or used at all. In fact, much of the electricity generated at (...) (21 years ago, 17-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) OK, that's great. But how much do you think it would cost you to cover your house in enough panels to just break even on energy consumption? If over $10K, what's the point, except the feeling of self-reliance (nothing wrong with that), or the (...) (21 years ago, 17-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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[snip] (...) Well I have done the math it would save my household about $10,000 over the course of the solar panels lifetime versus the current electric bill. (...) Well my house has a gas generator for back-up power already. It is slightly more (...) (21 years ago, 17-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | John Poindexter (was Re: TIA (was Re: A serious clone question)
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How does the right justify this guy? He's Mr. Secret Government! (URL) Mr. Poindexter was indicted on March 16, 1988 on seven federal felony charges stemming from the Iran-Contra scandal. The counts included participating in a criminal conspiracy (...) (21 years ago, 16-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) One book may be a revelation, or it could be a disgruntled whiner. It may be correct for the situation he was in, but not for the industry at large. It may even be correct for the industry at large, but by itself, it would be hard to draw that (...) (21 years ago, 16-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) And extremely costly. Consider that by the time the solar panels would require replacement, they still wouldn't have paid off their initial cost. Why else do you think non-oil producing countries have not implemented the system? It's not as if (...) (21 years ago, 16-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) The solar panels I am referring to are BASED on technology NASA created for solar panel use and construction. A typical home shingled in solar panels would generate enough power to operate lights and small appliances in overcast and light (...) (21 years ago, 16-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall
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(...) I regret to say I don't know any more than you on this, the word is unfamiliar to me. Rest assured, I'll look into it and let you know ASAP what I find. (...) You're guessing correctly: racism is based on race, xenophoby on passport (to put it (...) (21 years ago, 16-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall
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(...) I really can’t argue with that, you are quite correct, although I lived for a while in a city called La Habra, I still have no idea what that was supposed to mean in Spanish, Abra I think (...) I looked xenophobic up on dictionary.com to (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall
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(...) The sold portion is small when compared to the conquered portion, as you know. In any case, the main cities are not called St Francis, The Angels, or Sacrament: so you can't deny that Mexico has shaped what you know as California now. If (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) <snip> (...) You, the rest of your country, and the rest of the world. Get the moron out of office--all this reeks to high heaven! Davis was recalled for far less. Dave K (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) But Bush *has* engaged in Lay-favorable cronyism and protectionism, as Bruce has already ably discussed. That (presumably) separates Bush-the-potential-cronyist from Carl-the-potential-rapist. And you haven't addressed McAuliffe in this regard (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) As is any elected governor or president, which proves nothing. I, as a male, am directly positioned to commit rape. That doesn't mean that I do it. (...) For this charge to stick it must be demonstrated that Lay's advisory position was solely (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Okay, but only if you acknowledge that "liberal media" is demonstrably false, while Dubya's "tax cuts for the rich" is demonstrably true. Dave! (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall
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(...) Well-said. This country was built on immigration--I'm second-generation American myself. Legal immigration should be cheap, if not easy (we value dearly what we acquired dearly). Immigration should be for the purpose of becoming an American (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Don't take my word for it--try reading Bernard Goldberg's book Bias. I don't think anyone can make any persuasive argument for Goldberg being conservative. He details from personal experience what happens when one questions the way that news (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall
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(...) Sure, over 100 years ago, before a war was fought and the area was in essence sold to the US. (...) I feared when I made my post that I would be called a racist, however as a grandchild of immigrants who followed legal chanels to become (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall
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(...) Come again? Wasn't California part of Mexico in a not-so-distant past? (...) Are you fully aware of how xenophobic that paragraph is, Scott? "Give me your POOR, your oppressed, your hungry..." I guess the words below Miss Liberty are only (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Not at all. Bush, as an appointed maker-of-policy, is directly positioned to engage in heavy-duty cronyism. His intimate friendship with Lay directly paid off for Lay in the form of a key advisory position in closed-door policy meetings. The (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall
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(...) Actually, the Democrats kept control over Sacramento because the Republicans chose to run Bill Simon rather than rally behind a competent candidate. Now that this turned out to be a disaster (in more ways than one) they want to invalidate (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Satelite solar panels also don't have to deal with atmosphere... I'm sure it's changed now, but some 15 years ago, I hear solar panels were actually an energy loser, that their expected energy production for their lifetime was less than the (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) I think you misunderstand me: the term "liberal media" is used to try and claim a bias in news reporting against conservatives. That's it - it's not a term dependent on there being a specific organized conspiracy. You are effectively using the (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall
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(...) While I agree that this is much more of a local issue than a federal issue, I just can't understand how there can be over 2 million "right-wing" conspirators. My experience has been universal disdain for Davis. Pretty hard to support this guy (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Which are conveniently located outside the Earth's atmosphere, and therefore not subject to weather. Besides, they are designed for many charge/discharge cycles a day, since most satelites orbit the Earth more than once daily - the "night" (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) No matter how hard I try, I can't swallow conspiracy theories--including "liberal media." It's too ingrained in human nature to blab for any conspiracy to long endure! I believe that the media is largely composed of liberals (just check (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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[snip] (...) Not the ones that are illegal for me to purchase. They are based on the same technology NASA uses for its satellites. [snip] (...) Wish I knew. I do know that where I live the power company is required to buy back any power you generate (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Just showing some skeletons on the other side. McAuliffe was first to jump down Bush's throat for his "involvement" with Enron, but never mind his own $18 million profit off Global Crossing that looked as specious as anything Bush might have (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) There are plenty of reasons to be paranoid about the current administration, but that sounds a little too paranoid for my tastes. I think that some of the main arguments against decentralization are: 1) The expense of switching from the (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Sorry, misunderstood that in your post. (...) No they wouldn't, since all solar powered systems are pretty much unreliable. It's not that they do not work in cloudy conditions, only they work at a very unneficient pace (so to speak). And then (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) How did you jump to that conclusion? Scott A (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Hmmm... Schwarzenegger taps George Shultz for economic council (URL) Still think it's only a local GOP thang? We do not live in interesting times -- frightening is more like it... I don't claim to know precisely what is happening, but it's (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Whoa. I don't have a problem with the powergrid I have a problem with the centralized generation. The solar panels that are illegal for me to use on my house, if used by everyone, would produce enough excess energy to power the cites. However (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Solar Panels? Domestic generators? (in abstract, "self-generated power"?) Back in the early days of electricity there was a powerplant in every block, at least in NYC; I believe that can be considered similar to what you advocate? Well, that (...) (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) About half way through this post: (URL) subject of the centralized power grid comes up. (In the middle of the usual lunacy) -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind
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(...) Just my 2c Altruism: Carpooling (with some non-car-owners too). Charity: Picking up a hitchhiker (now and then). Best DaveG (21 years ago, 15-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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Clinton? Bush? Who cares? In my opinion they are figureheads only. The democrat v republican game is also a mere sideshow. Real power is media-hidden in enterprises like Enron and the IMF: 1. You go on in. 2. Your paid for politicians hand you the (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Would you care to ellaborate on that? I thought it was a liberalized market already. What exactly is the role of the Feds in the electrical business? And what/why should it happen different, in your POV? TIA, Pedro (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) Yet I can't help but wonder why the government covertly prevents the de-centralization of power generation. They have to maintain their control over the people I guess. -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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(...) It reminded me of "ALF": the cause for him being stranded on Earth was everyone turning on their hairdriers simultaneously - I wonder what too many air conditioning devices could do? ;-) Pedro (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Unexplained power outages in New York, Toronto, and other cities
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Kind of odd. Everyone might want to check the news. They say it is not a terrorist attack. Aweful strange though. Isn't having a centralized power grid great. Idiot government regulations... -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!)
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(...) But if you're saying paying 40k for a 1978 Pinto isn't charity, and that any exchange where both sides assign a "value" to the exchange, then altruism or charity can only happen when one side assigns no value whatsoever to the transaction, (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) So I expect to never, ever hear the phrase "liberal media" out of you, right, since it sided with Bush? :-) "We all know that election laws don't matter when Democrats are on the losing side..." Okay, back that up. Give some examples. As to (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!)
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(...) This may simply be a matter of our differing perspectives. If you are a uniquely qualified brain surgeon and you agree perform a highly complex operation for $5.00, then that particular operation is worth (in dollar terms) exactly $5.00. (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Perhaps I'm missing something here. Did Global Crossing deliberately overstate its outlook and earnings by billions of dollars, while defrauding its shareholders and employees, and did it also swindle California (greatly contributing to the (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!)
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(...) No. If you give me a roof to put over my head for a nite, that may well be worth a lot more than an hour's time picking up the parking lot is worth. (best I could do on short notice on the way back from BF was around 50-60 a nite but it's a (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Yeah, just like all those media recounts showed that Gore still lost. We all know that election laws don't matter when Democrats are on the losing side... Absolutely not. It is the job of the judiciary to evaluate the constitutionality of laws (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) You may be correct about the no-fly zones being established by coalition forces, but they were a condition of the cease-fire, and violation of a cease-fire is more than sufficient reason to resume hostilities. The UN wouldn't enforce anything (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Judicial fiat is how we have Bush as president if that's the way you want to look at it, so I'm not sure what you point is when you try to use an example of a proposition that was doomed legally from the word go. What, the judiciary should (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) IIRC, the no-fly zones were established by the US and UK, so they are irrelevant to UN resolutions. For that matter, Dubya himself hampered the efforts of the UN to enforce its own resolutions when he made logically impossible demands upon (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) IMO, the only justification needed was this: Hussein was in continuing violation of the cease-fire that ended the first Gulf War, both through continuing activities in no-fly zones and hampering efforts of enforcement of the UN resolutions (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) None of which was listed as the reason for the pre-emptive war. But I guess Hussein's actions (and the actions of his sons) are as good a reason as any to kill 3,000+ innocent Iraqi civilians, not to mention the dead or wounded US citizens... (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Or Hussein's reign of terror, torture, and rape! Carl (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) With the possible exception of that whole Iraq war thing, right? -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) One primary recourse is for the government simply to declare off-shore tax-shelters illegal for corporations that do not maintain their primary base-of-operations there (Corporate Shills in the Legislature have squawked that this is an (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) As are so-called "Democrats" who are as happy to obtain their way by judicial fiat that completely ignores democratic processes. For example, take controversial Proposition 187 in California: a clear expression of will by 59% of the voters (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Yes, everybody wants total domination for their particular agenda, but the article was accurate on that account: the right-wing Republicans are doing whatever it takes to actually achieve theirs. Personally, I think their overreaching mania (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Well-put, and I don't disagree with the sentiment. After all, I'm supporting a position that good works are a reward in and of themselves without regard to any fiscal gain or loss! But to be a contrarian, a social contract isn't enforceable (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) Yes, but what does Bush have to do with the recall of Davis? This is a local mania of the Republican party, who have finally figured out that they can abuse the recall procedures against the Democratic party rather than their own. Given Dubya (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Strongly disagree -- as you knew I would. Your statement ignores the social contract that corporations have with the societies that provide them with the fiction that makes any of their business possible in the first place. It is not for (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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(...) That's pretty funny--I was snickering as soon as I hit the "rightwing (sic) forces controlling the Republican Party want TOTAL victory" part. Substitute left wing and Democrat and that statement's true too. Geez, what a revelation! I'm sure (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Wow--I kinda had the feeling from reading this NG for a while that you & I might never agree on anything! :) I lean towards a national sales tax for several reasons: 1) Given 3 common economic behaviors, production (including reinvestment), (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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Good points, but like most fictions in life, we stick to entity status for corporations because it largely works. For every bad corporation that makes the news, there are handfuls of good ones that promote employee welfare and good corporate (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Newsbits: CA Recall and IMF-Argentina Negotiations
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California Recall: The Coup Inside a Circus (URL) edit: I can't quite dismiss this story as complete madness. There's so much going on right now in terms of information consolidation that it's hard to see the purposes of democracy winning out (...) (21 years ago, 14-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!)
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(...) -snip- (...) Where did that definition come from? Did you make it up by yourself? It seems to be a very nice definition for your purposes. But wait, you said "it's better if..." in there! That's pretty odd for a system determine if an act is (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Of course, if that is true, we're also all clients. Do we gain both ways? ;-) Pedro (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Ah, the myth of the global economy rears its ugly head! The global economy is only good for people that can move hundreds of millions from a country doing poorly to one that is doing better. If you are not dealing in hundreds of millions then (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) I don't know about Dave!, but I favor any of the above over our current system of taxation. FWIW, the question of how the tax is levied leaves to the side two main issues: how much to tax and how to handle corporate taxes. I unequivocally (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) But they don't 'dodge a tax burden' here. If they have land here, then they pay property tax here. Further, if they own land here, chances are they visit said land and therefore spend other monies here as well. Whether or not they spend more (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Carl Nelson wrote: **snip of the points I think we've identified as mutually un-convinceable** (...) Definitely. The analogy I was looking for but couldn't recall was the frog in the pan of boiling water. If you drop him (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Thus one problem with our tax system--gas tax to pay for roads, federal income tax to pay DC, and local to pay the county school board. If I don't pay gas tax I'm not paying my part for the roads, am I? And it doesn't address the central (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) 'Twas ever thus... We are all of us prostitutes and it's always about price. -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Paying one's "fair share" is only relevant to WHERE one owes it. I think you are failing to understand precisely why the royal family of England owns so much property in the U.S. -- because it's cheaper for them here than in their own country! (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) All right, but the point remains. Under my example, the low-wealth person *is* participating in the tax framework, just as readily as if you'd assigned some low figure as an appropriate level of taxation. I don't think it's material to quibble (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) The key word is "wealthy benefactor;" it's charity because a person has decided to do something of no advantage to himself or herself that does enormous good to others. It's also not charity by proxy; it's charity at an individual level. I (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Hey, you stinker--I've told you before that if you don't actually agree with me, you're supposed to pretend that you do. And anyway, I don't use strawman arguments--my fallacy was the false dilemma, thankyouverymuch. 8^) Anyway, I didn't quite (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Et tu, Dave!? This is the same "love it or leave it" crap that one normally hears from the right. It is also a straw man, there is of course the alternative of simply staying and trying to "improve" the system. Improve is in quotes because one (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) My point is that the *amount* isn't what's at stake, but the participation in the specific tax--sales tax, income tax, franchise tax, VAT, etc. Otherwise we're arguing about magic numbers--if $10 is sufficient, why not $11, etc.--and that's (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) I concur--I just wanted the clarity. (...) The idea of 'pay what you owe' is ingrained into my nature by my parents. Those folks who 'take the system for granted' without putting into the (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) If $10 per anum was considered a satisfactory level of payment, then surely a greater tax (sales tax, etc.) is at least as satisfactory? Indeed, I believe the proposal suggested that welfare (gleaned from taxes) be provided to the poor so that (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) But that just postpones the argument, rather than resolving it. (I continue this point below.) (...) Here we may be at a crux of our disagreement. Why doesn't the public good qualify as charity? Are there circumstances under which it might (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Beat me to it! :) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Then it's a matter of degrees--the more you pay in taxes the less you are a squatter? Dave K (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) No moreso than if they pay the $10 per annum tax that you proposed. And I would suggest the person in my example is less of a squatter, since yearly sales tax (plus hidden taxes like tariffs, etc.) would almost certainly exceed $10. Dave! (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!)
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(...) You propose a valid system, but any kind of work-to-earn-charity scheme seems either to disqualify the relevent gift as charity or else to qualify all payment-for-work as charity. Do you consider your paycheck a charitable contribution from (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) They share part of the tax burden. But if they don't share the full tax burden, aren't they just, as you put it in another reply to me, squatters? Best regards, Carl (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!)
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(...) Isn't it pretty sad to think that there is nothing you could do to "earn" charity? Wouldn't it be better if you went up to a church (or any other building) and offered to pick up trash in their parking lot for a hot meal and a roof to sleep (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Generosity makes us better people (at least in my code of values--if it doesn't in yours then there's nothing but for us to agree to disagree). If our "generosity" is fueled only by a desire to earn a space in heaven, we are buying, not (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!
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(...) Everyone who buys anything (excepting a few items like food and, in some cases, clothing) already pays taxes, so this particular fallacy as you frame it does not exist in the governor's reasoning. Dave! (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!)
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(...) Allow me a maudlin, over-wrought digression: We're *all* street people. It's just that some of us have had the good luck to be related to wealthy people, and others have had the good luck to achieve a personal wealth by what they perceive as (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Altruism is a bad idea? (was Re: Finally some church/state mingling that I can really get behind!)
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(...) I'm not 100% sure, but it sounds like you're working from a Randian definition of altruism, which is like working from a Falwellian definition of pornography. I don't know why we'd want to pick that particular slant as the "right" definition (...) (21 years ago, 13-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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