 | | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) No, you're right, it doesn't. I apologize for sounding cross. I didn't mean my statement as something intended to refute your larger argument but instead simply a tangent intended to express some amount of disbelief in creationism. While I (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Simon (and all Europeans and Americans of similar thinking); (...) Oh, yes, Europeans reactions to the whole Yugoslavia breakup has been stellar, hasn't it? Or is it that Europeans screamed for America to spend our own troops and money on it? Give (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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Simon Robinson <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote in message news:FH135q.M3B@lugnet.com... (...) (snip) (...) Yeah. Only when it's too late to nip the thing in the bud, then the rest of the world gets draged in kicking and screeming. (snip) (...) (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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(...) Environment-friendly as it may seem, insane gasoline taxes to subsidize inefficient public transport do not reduce pollution per se. Despite low gas prices, pollution here has been reduced quite a bit since the introduction of emmissions (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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(...) ^^^...^^^ (...) Being from Germany originally, I have to wholeheartedly agree that the European 'news' media generally strive to (and succeed at) creating a very poor impression of America. Besides intentional misinformation[1] and genuine (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) You created Lugnet. Why not something more complex? (...) That does not mean that Data didn't have observable shortcomings. But Noonian Sung knew everything about Data. (...) "Anything" is a much misused word. :-) But in the case of humans, we (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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Simon Robinson <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote in message news:FH13En.Mnt@lugnet.com... (...) (snip) (...) We don't. Our federal govenment has tons of debt. Any news to the contrary is just smoke and mirrors. Adam (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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(...) <snip> (...) provides a (...) I'm with Richard on that one. In the UK we pay the equivalent of about $5 a gallon. People here do complain about the huge petrol tax here but I'd say it's fair. Driving *DOES* damage the environment. You drive a (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) I (...) Hehe. If you so intimately knew your creation, say Lugnet for instance, wouldn't you know what it would do ahead of time given just about any situation? Maybe you could anticipate what it would do 95, 96, 97, or even 100% of the time. (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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(...) That's true of all countries. Yes, we all need to be a lot more aware of what goes on elsewhere in the world. It's great to hear someone saying that. Simon (URL) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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(...) I've just seen some very strange answers to this question. Jesse, I think what you've written comes closest to the truth. Eric Kingsley was pretty close to the mark too. Coming from the UK, I think that yes it is true that *in general* many (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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(...) Aw, he's jus' yanking yer chain, cousin. (...) Yep! By virtue of military superiority, if anything else. (...) 'Cause we're extremely arrogant. Even more so than the French, and possibly even the Dutch. Cheers, - jsproat (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) If I were to wax philosophical, like Mr. Lehman, days would seem like millennia, if I were to wax philosophical. ;-) Perhaps -- and this is purely guesswork -- time was conceived to allow good things to happen. It's pretty much stated in (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) Utilitarianism is very similar-- the consequences of the action are critical. An action is judged according to the level of happiness after the fact. The consequences of the action affect people's happiness, even in little ways, and the (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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(...) They resent the fact that we saved their bacon, twice, for free. (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) So stipulated. I did use both "Most" and "maybe" in my post. Doesn't dilute the argument... (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) Straw man alert. Who is? You may be pretty sure that your book has all the answers, and you may be prepared to abide by whatever it says, no matter whether it makes sense or not, but that, in and of itself doesn't make you a moron, I don't (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Say, if it took God six days to create the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, this would seem to indicate that God isn't infinitely fast...that good things take time. Maybe He could make the Universe blink *out* of (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Questions: If this little Universe we're in is a simple enough dynamical system that all aspects of it can be pre-known by God, or if God can compute the answer faster than the machine (the Universe) itself can, then why did God create such a (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) Whoa -- cool! Great example! OK, so if fraternal twins have two souls right from the start, then how about identical twins? Does an embryo or a zygote which is destined to become a pair of identical twins have two souls to begin with -- one (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Todd Lehman <lehman@javanet.com> wrote in message news:37c37276.223080...net.com... [snip clone stuff] I have no clue. I think successfully cloning a human would send metaphysical shockwaves all over the place. the only good places to draw a solid (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) Hmm. Does a clone of yourself count as a blood relative? And would that fall under incest or homosexuality? How about an opposite-sex clone? (If there is such a thing. I'm sure there will be someday!) Do human clones have souls? Or only those (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) IMHO, it's difficult not to conclude that bonobo apes probably have the mental faculties for moral codes. --Todd (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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Reply-To: cjc@newsguy.com Followup-To: (...) Because they see us as being from a country without much history at all compared to some of theirs. And because that same history-less country has rendered a great many of them irrelevant and/or (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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Adam Howard <abhoward10@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:FGzy1q.A59@lugnet.com... (...) I'm a Yankee. Although don't tell anyone, as I currently reside in Texas. Ever look at the productivity rates in Europe? Or the unemployment? I like it better (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Simon Robinson <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote in message news:FGz2xu.8B9@lugnet.com... (...) the (...) things (...) strict (...) by (...) Okay. But before I start I have to say that "scholars" have been able to make the Bible say whatever they want (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep
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Richard Dee <richard.dee@virgin.net> wrote in message news:MPG.122bb3a6c8e...net.com... (...) $1.25/gal (...) Yanks? Dems fightin' words. Yankees live up north above Kentucky and Virginia, Southerners live down south. And Westerners live on the (...) (25 years ago, 25-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | read this, then fight about it!
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bill of no rights The following was written by State Representative Mitchell Kaye from Cobb County, GA. We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) <SMARTARSE> The second example is: If a set number of angels can dance on the stud of a melting Lego brick at any determined temperature, would God know that number in advance? </SMARTARSE> I prefer to think of predestination to be something (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Tom McDonald writes: <snip> (...) Oops! I misspoke. Not two examples, just one. Doh! -Tom McD. when replying, your SpamcakeCard has been pre-approved! (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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David Eaton wrote in message ... (...) sigh, (...) We all do. I should probably stay out of this, since it is someone else's argument and words... (...) point... (...) sounds (...) the (...) a (...) different (...) To me, having a moral code that is (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Simon Robinson writes: <snipped above> (...) <snip> (...) I can explain them as far as the context of "the reward he got for his wickedness" if we consider the verse after Acts 1:18, and the verses following Matthew 27:5, (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) stretch (...) I'm talking about knowing how something will react before it happens. For two examples, it's like saying you know Lego can stand temps up to 104 degrees F without ever having testing it if you had sufficient knowledge of the (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) (I've been peeking at this debate, but have refused to get involved... sigh, how I weaken) It almost sounds as if you are referring to Utilitarianism until this point... Perhaps it's the definition of "life-affirming", which is left a little (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Augh! Now you're talking about predestination. That's been a theological hot button for quite awhile. Does God already know who's going to be saved, and who isn't? And how is His knowing different from Him selecting? Is there actually free (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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I'll respond to this one first, and Jesse's maybe later. (...) Hopefully I didn't come off as TOO self-righteous, because that would be a flaw, and I don't have any. :-) I think that's great, but why do you do it? If (...) Good question. I could (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) At the risk of me being accused of saying something then not following through, I'm not sure there's too much point me trawling through back messages to pick logical flaws in what was said - especially as I think you and John N both picked (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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(...) Trouble is it doesn't look to me like it really is 'God's standards' your pushing. It looks to me more like a set of standards that *PEOPLE* have come up with by following through one particular, and highly questionable, interpretation of the (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37C1467E.E8D0D6...ger.net... (...) How? All you do is sit around hacking away at other people's views without offering any workable alternatives (much like you do with your politics). How much (...) (25 years ago, 24-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) I had never heard of the idea that this was a bet. But I could see how it could come across that way. Yet it wasn't really a bet at all because God had nothing to lose and he knew it. I'd call Satan a fool for even thinking that God could be (...) (25 years ago, 23-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) If you believe the axiom that "God knows everything" (and that I know is a muchly overused notion) and that he is all-wise, then it's not hard to stretch and say that God knows (and has apparently declared) that Satan is incorrigible. It seems (...) (25 years ago, 23-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Do put your oar in Simon, I think you're making some good points (...) Knowing deep in your inner being what something means, and being able to use it to make predictions, are two different things. I won't pretend to understand quanta, or (...) (25 years ago, 23-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.geek, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) No, debates like this are useful. It's true that you rarely convince someone directly by one posting - human pride tends to be too strong for that. But the overall effect of arguing sensibly for something can change people's attitudes (...) (25 years ago, 23-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil? (Was Re: POV-RAY orange color (0)
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(...) I know; I shamelessly took advantage of selective snipping. :) (25 years ago, 23-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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(...) Dunno. I'd be personally happier if Lucas would be a nice greedy person and take my $100 or so for the first 4 SW movies right now instead of in 2005 (or whenever it is). I'd rather him be motivated by money in this than by his need to control (...) (25 years ago, 23-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) It touches my heart when Larry can vouch for me. (Wipes away a tear...) :) < snip Larry's commendable observations of ignorant, intolerant people a.k.a. so called Christians > I agree with Larry on his observations on "Christianity". People (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil? (Was Re: POV-RAY orange color (0)
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(...) You know that, and I know that. But John, being a mac user, doesn't. :-) Just kidding. But I, right after that, did express it in decimal, exactly. It's just not a non-repeating decimal. He didn't say it couldn't repeat... (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) Yup, I'll vouch for Scott. (...) Eminently sensible advice. I'm certainly not out to convert anyone to atheism. If you need me to tell you how to think, you need some sort of crutch anyway, so why not pick one that to the uncritical thinker (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil? (Was Re: POV-RAY orange color (0)
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(...) But that's not _dec_imal, which implies base 10. (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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(...) Why does Lucas *need* to do that? (Or anything else for that matter?) Isn't what you really meant to say instead: that you personally would be happier with Lucas's movies if he spent less time pandering to the audience and weaving racist (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Plowing though .debate and a couple numbers caught my eye! (below) (...) Larry, IMBW, but I think John might've meant "pi" when he said "22/7" -- at least, I know I've heard people accidentally refer to pi in that manner before. John, pi = (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.geek)
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| | Re: Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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Moderate? Communist? HA! I am about as much Communist as George Lucas is poor. ;) You can ask Larry P. even. Right Larry? :) Scott S. P.S. I think this is one subject that will never be resolved between non-believers and believers, some will (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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Who cares what motivation was behind George Lucas movie making attempts? I like them, I found them entertaining, and if he profits from that, good for him. I am just glad that he made TLG make real sets again! Scott S. (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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Scott Edward Sanburn <ssanburn@aeieng.com> wrote in message news:37C0092A.3C8A36...eng.com... (...) who (...) "agree (...) "LEGO" (...) Hey, keep the voice of moderation out of this. This is America, where you fight to the end over everything, and (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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Mike Stanley <cjc@NOSPAMnewsguy.com> wrote in message news:slrn7rvvio.5kv....UTK.EDU... (...) So now it's not just money, it's ego? Is that better? Jesse (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: U.S. Lego (Was Re: What is Samsonite Lego?)
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Not when the Chi-Comm's give you millions of dollars in campaign contributions for the election and nuclear missile technology! Scott S. (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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< clipped Larry's and John's view on God > That's what makes America great, gentlemen. I don't agree with Larry's assessment, but I won't get gunned down for it either (At least, not yet, who knows in Clinton's America). You have your beliefs, I (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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(...) Sometimes I'm not so sure Lucas is motivated purely by money. He could make a mint right now if he released the first 3 movies on DVD, then PM next year, but he won't. He isn't going to release them till they're all done. Will he make a (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Extropianism
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John Neal wrote in message <37BF0506.AE7F8075@u...st.net>... (...) The (...) like (...) I guess there is an art in getting rich, too. George Lucas seems to have it down pat. If the guy wants to make money (most people in Hollywood (or anywhere else) (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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(...) Agree with everything you say in that paragraph. But a film can still be low quality in my eyes even if there was a lot of time and money spent on it, and the technicians knew their craft. Consider "Waterworld". Conversely, a film can be high (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37BF2A50.B6DC18...ger.net... (...) Quality takes time and effort. You can't just throw something together and have it be quality, unless you're some kind of genius. In films, quality can be (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil? (Was Re: POV-RAY orange color (0)
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(...) Yes, in fact it does. The rules are the way they are because the devisers of the rules have desired outcomes and want the game to have certain characteristics. Why the devisers want those characteristics would be a matter for sociology or (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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(...) I apply the "in my living room" rule to art. If I'd be proud to have it displayed in my living room it's valuable art. If not, it may still be art, just not in my living room. Lots of the junk you find on college campuses, in fact most of it, (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Extropianism
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(...) Well, suppose you wanted to make an anti-war movie, and the test audience came out of the theater laughing and playing mock war. Would you conclude that you had done something wrong, or that the audience was just stupid and incapable of (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Extropianism
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(...) Is it possible to evoke *a* particular response? Unless the response you want is for people to give you money for your work. (...) A good artist IMHO works independently of his audience. Pop artists might be a different story. -John (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) Are the two mutually exclusive? (...) I would never advocate that. In fact, Jesus came so that we might have more abundant life HERE and NOW. Christianity is all about how we live NOW, and how we treat our neighbors NOW. Being faithful to (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Extropianism
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(...) On the other hand, some artists create art to evoke particular responses from their audience. If the desired response isn't forthcoming, it's a poor artist that blames the audience. A good artist will revise the piece until it works as (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil? (Was Re: POV-RAY orange color (0)
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(...) Does the scientific method help me to understand the rules of baseball? A kind of apples and oranges situation, as it is with God and science. You can't define something that is BY DEFINITION undefinable. Try expressing 22/7 as a decimal (I (...) (25 years ago, 22-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) You might want to read To Reign in Hell, by Steven Brust, which paints a far more interesting picture. Brust is quoted on the jacket: "From all of my readings on the revolt of the angels, two things are clear: God is omnipotent, and Satan is (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | How to decide what art is worth (was Re: Extropianism
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(...) I'll grant that they may well have changed the endings. But what of it? Who is to say that the ending they chose is "lower quality"? How do you define quality in this context? George Lucas is free to choose to organize his films however he (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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Larry Pieniazek wrote in message <37BF1B78.C2E77093@v...er.net>... (...) Your not the only one. Well said! -- Have fun! John AUCTION Page (More soon!) (URL) Page (URL) & IG88888888 on AOL (...) have come (...) times must (...) DEFINITION. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Taking things on faith (was Re: POV-RAY orange color
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You're free to reject science, that's your choice. (and saying there are things higher than science, is, ultimately, to reject it. When the safe is falling down on your head, feel free to count on your faith to save you. I think I'll step aside (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) Moot. Doesn't matter. Scholars *have* studied the Bible critically and have come up with many illuminating ideas, BUT it only takes you so far. How many times must I say that one *cannot* apply science to that which is untestable BY (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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Steve Bliss <blisses@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:37bc18d7.153793...net.com... (...) I (...) Well, the convenant was with humanity, not the spirit realm, so I guess Satan would not be covered, since he is not/was not human. You bring up a (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Extropianism
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They compromised their artistic integrity for $$$. I think *they* would perceive themselves as "artists", and not merely capitalists. An artist works to express him/herself, not to make money (starving artist idea). The more an artist produces what (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil? (Was Re: POV-RAY orange color (0)
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37BD6985.26585E...ger.net... (...) I think the claim that man could reconcile with God through faith alone and not earn it is new for the time. (...) He didn't say "know," he said "knew." (...) (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Simon Robinson <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote in message news:FGrK2C.L1t@lugnet.com... (...) lives (...) factors (...) fooling (...) I can't remember the author, but there's a book out about the most influential people in history and Jesus is about (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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Simon Robinson <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote in message news:FGqKGr.sy@lugnet.com... (...) to (...) I think there are some books that could be stories (not real) without taking away from the overall message of the book. Job and Esther come to (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Extropianism
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:37BBD004.F53CFD...ger.net... (...) I'm saying that the masses prompted the movie makers in these two cases to dumb down their movies and lower the quality because they didn't like the endings. (...) (25 years ago, 21-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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I don't believe in an afterlife. Dead is dead. IMO, people create their own "Heaven" and/or "Hell" while they are alive. Of course the best argument for this is simply: If there is afterbirth, there must be afterlife. :') (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | The nature of the JC god, good or evil? (Was Re: POV-RAY orange color (0)
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(...) Why not? The scientific method works. Look at the marvels and wonders it's produced. What lasting contribution to human progress have those oral traditions given us? (1) (...) In what way was he more than a man? (beware of circular arguments) (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) That's certainly a matter of interpretation. Were I more than normally interested in baiting you I'd say GIGO, but I won't. I will merely say that the Bible is not an easy read and that scholars do a great deal of debating about what errors (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I see your point. It wasn't my intention to try to add veracity by saying something like "that many people can't be wrong" I just meant that people still talk about 1 man who lived 2000 years ago and follow his message. Why? (...) Yes, of (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes: <snip> (...) Saying that Jesus was the most influencial human that ever lived is IMO one of those statements that sounds reasonable at first, but doesn't really stand up to close analysis. Influencing (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) The Bible isn't a proof text. It's a collection of many different traditions, most of them oral. Don't be so "Western Culture, how did it happen, is it true, what are the facts". The fact is that the ancient world didn't care for such things, (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ah, OK. So what else in the bible is just a story, then, and what is true, if anything? None of the old, and all of the new testament? Or something different? And what's the basis for your sorting? AFAIAC, Jesus being the son of god is just a (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Who *really* knows? I'm more interested in living life here and now on earth. We'll all find out the hard way soon enough as it is;-) (...) As I mentioned before, it is the view in a book by CS Lewis entitled The Great Divorce. It's a story (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) Well, let me first say that I am a Christian, which is to say that I follow the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was the Jewish Messiah who came from God to teach us about Him and about how to live. His nature (man/God) is a mystery which cannot be (...) (25 years ago, 20-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes: <snip> (about Job) (...) into (...) assumes (...) addresses (...) fair, (...) John, I'm intrigued. In all the discussions I've followed here, you appear to have been arguing from the Christian point of (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) that there (...) because they (...) will. They (...) love of (...) their (...) But if it's they're decision, doesn't that imply they would have the power to reverse that decision? Christian theologies may differ on interpretation of hell, but (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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Mike Stanley wrote: ???!! I never said anything about burning, literary or no. What I said was that there are people who would *choose* to not be with God (my definition of Heaven) because they *hate* the light and love the darkness. It is *their* (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) So you're saying that you believe that people will literally burn for all eternity in Hell? That God, in his infinite wisdom, knowledge, love, and compassion, could actually allow that to happen? Why? What possible point could there be for (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) There should be enough people that I can stand on top of a bunch of them, and clear the surface. Steve (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Hmm. Good question. I think the answer is, "nothing in the Bible addresses this point". But to talk about it anyway: it's not enough to ask for forgiveness. It's a condition for salvation, but not main cause of salvation. The real reason (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It's a story. Didn't really happen. It is, however, a fascinating insight into the development of the Jewish concept of God. An immature belief in God assumes that the good in this world would get rewarded, and the bad punished. That's fair, (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) That story has always bugged me too. I don't really see how some people see it as one that makes God look good. Satan basically ego-trips him into letting him royally dump on Job, and God, who is supposed to be so loving of his creation, let's (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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Mike Stanley wrote:But COME ON, eternal damnation? I'm supposed to believe that an (...) Think of it this way, Mike. God isn't the one doing the damning. There are people who hate the light and love darkness. Even faced with God in His glory, *they (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: God and the Devil and forgiveness (was Re: POV-RAY orange color)
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(...) Well, I assume you're joking. If not, I'm not so sure Greek mythology was "believable" but it sure is more fun. Purely Roman mythology, the stuff that they didn't just rename/incorporate from the Greeks, can be interesting too. (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Extropianism
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(...) Thanks. I appreciate your recognising it as such. Really. (...) Whereas the alternative is to say you have no faith in them? How very elitist of you. Next I suppose you'll be telling me that government can make better decisions about my life (...) (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: POV-RAY orange color
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(...) Wasn't Job the guy that God bet the Devil about how unshakable his faith was? I'll have no truck with a god that would do such a thing as allow another deity to throw his worst at me just to settle a bet. (25 years ago, 19-Aug-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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