Subject:
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Re: 22/7 & infinities (was: Re: The nature of the JC god, good or evil?)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:27:30 GMT
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Viewed:
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1575 times
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Simon Robinson <simon@simonrobinson.com> wrote in message
news:FGz2xu.8B9@lugnet.com...
> Jesse> It seems quite plausible to me that there is a God of love and that
> God wants us to love each other etc., but that that God did *NOT* write • the
> Bible. Your last
> posting seemed to imply that any belief in God requires you to reject • things
> like homosexuality, (presumably because that's what you get out of a • strict
> interpretation of the Bible - an interpretation which has been challenged • by
> scholars).
> Perhaps you'd like to explain the link.
Okay. But before I start I have to say that "scholars" have been able to
make the Bible say whatever they want it to. They used to support racism
and slavery with it. Some still do. So the fact that some scholars debate
the issue does not bother me too much. People will interpret the Bible as
they see fit, as straight interpretation often includes moral imperatives
that they are not comfortable with supporting. Excuse me for using the
English translation (NAS).
Islam, Judaism, and Christianity all claim the same God, the God of Abraham.
We agree in theory on many issues, so the definitions I am using (although
not necessarily the sources) are going to be more or less acceptable to all
three religions, which together constitute the vast bulk of monotheists in
the world. Now, if you can't even give me this, then you might as well not
even read the rest.
Genesis 19: 4-7 "Before they [two angels] lay down, the men of the city,
the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people
from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the
men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we may have
relations with them.' But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut the
door behind him, and said, 'Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly."
The next morning Sodom was destroyed.
Leviticus 18: (abridged version) You may not have sex with any blood
relative--father, mother, father's wife, sister (father's daughter, mother's
daughter), granddaughter (son's daughter, daughter's daughter), half-sister
(father's wife's daughter, born to your father), aunt (father's sister,
mother's sister, father's brother's wife), uncle (father's brother),
daughter-in-law (son's wife), sister-in-law (brother's wife)--or a woman
*and* her daughter or granddaughter, a woman and her sister while the first
is alive, a woman during her period, your neighbor's wife, another man, or
an animal. Specifically, verse 22 reads: "You shall not lie with a male as
one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
It's tough to read that one wrong. Your only chance is to argue that Christ
changed the laws or God changed His mind. But Paul writes:
Romans 1:26-27 "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions;
for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman
and burned in their desire towards one another, men with men committing
indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their
error."
I Corinthians 6:9 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not
inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,"
I Timothy 1:9-10 "Law is not made for a righteous man, but for...immoral
men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever
else is contrary to sound teaching."
What's more to the point (my point, anyway) is that God disapproves of all
sexual relations outside of marriage, be it fornication (neither is
married), adultery (one or both is/are married elsewhere), or homosexuality
(same-sex relations). Not only is homosexuality mentioned specifically in
both the old and new testaments as a bad thing, but it is never mentioned in
terms of marriage. Marriage is always between a man and a woman, and any
sexual relations outside of that constitutes sin. Jesus, in defining
marriage, goes so far as to state that any divorce for other than sexual
immorality makes any following marriage adulterous (apparently because the
first one stands).
So homosexuality is banned twice, in one way specifically, in a second by
inference. I'm making a much more inflammatory and "judgmental" statement
than just saying that homosexuality is wrong. I'm saying a lot of sex is
wrong.
Do you find support for homosexuality in the Bible?
Sometimes people talk about God accepting everyone and loving everyone.
Well, this is true, He does love everyone, and all those who accept/receive
Christ are accepted/received by God. Can (is it possible for) a homosexual
accept Christ? Yes. Can (is it possible for) a Christian have homosexual
thoughts or even go out and commit homosexual acts? Yes. Just as anyone
who commits adultery or fornication can fit into either category. Is that a
sin? Yes. Does God frown on it? Yes. Should the church mindlessly
embrace unrepentant sinners? No (do I have to find the verse?). Let me
take the homophobia out of this (I'm surprised no one has claimed it
yet)--sex outside of marriage (which is by definition between man and woman)
is a sin, and homosexuality cannot be practiced within marriage, therefore
it is a sin.
It isn't as much about homosexuality as it is about sin, and it's not as
much about sin as it is about the church trying to pin down personal
behavior that apparently doesn't hurt anyone else as sin. Today we prefer
to adhere only to the sins that obviously affect society (murder, rape,
etc.). If it's just me and my body, leave me alone, right?
We don't like to think that abusing our bodies might be a sin against God
(who gave us our bodies). Think of the "seven deadly sins." How many are
internal, and how many external? Think of the ten commandments. How many
are external? About four, maybe five. God cares as much about the heart
and the mind as the actions.
My belief in God requires me to reject sin, and as homosexuality is sin, I
reject homosexuality. I also reject adultery, fornication, drunkenness,
gluttony, and a lot of other things too. I do my best not to sin. When I
do, I ask forgiveness and try again. I am not an unrepentant sinner, but
if/when I am then God is not pleased and the church should counsel me and,
if necessary, kick me out until I repent.
I also believe that God inspired the Bible, and that it exists today in a
form sufficiently close to the original Greek and Hebrew that modern
translations retain the original message. I do not believe that the Bible
text has been altered by those in power to fit special objectives.
Interpreted that way, yes, read that way to the illiterate, yes--but not
pen-and-ink changes. The Jewish scribes were way too anal about copying
those things for those kinds of changes to get through. I believe that we
are looking at essentially the same books of the Bible that they looked at
1600 years ago (NT) or thousands of years ago (OT). I have a hard time
liberally interpreting something as plain as "you will not lie with a man as
one lies with a woman." Maybe that's our problem.
I hope that went in a good direction for you.
Jesse
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