 | | Re: Validity testing (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Hmmm. Maybe. But I'd use the example of Newtonian physics to say even though it doesn't hold in extreme conditions, it's generally "good enough" for everyday life. Maybe that also holds for this situation... ROSCO (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) *Exactly* my point. The statement "It is not very nice to yell at loved ones" therefore does not hold, because it is untrue in extremes. It does not mean it is *always* *not* "not very nice", but that the statemtent/theory itself is not (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I think I see your point, Dave. But I'm sure you'd agree the validity of something (an action or idea) is often situational and cannot be judged/argued if it happens in extremes or abolute vacuum. Nature abhores a vacuum (and a dustbuster as (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: FOTM/LOTM (Loss of the Month) Some thoughts...
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(...) You may want to take this thread to off-topic.debate, where it has been discussed before. IMHO it's off topic for general now that you're verging on class warfare. (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) No I am not. I am trying to do better at ignoring you, or at least ignoring you when you are at your silliest... What possible value add is there in a comment like "do I use voodoo dolls", I wonder? And I am sure everyone else is wondering it (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Why are you concerned? Do you want to make sure that your name is in the book? I've never met anyone else who can get stuck on such simple things besides you. You ask rhetorical questions and actually expect an answer.... (...) -Duane (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) ? So you were able to agree that the lion's view is amoral, but at the same time you think that such a statement should not be made? Are you saying "If I had to guess, I'd say it was amoral, but I don't think I should be forced to guess, as (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Yes, I do. However, I do not understand how that answered the question. Were you saying "None of the above"? What were you saying? Should I just infer what you were talking about? I asked for clarification. (...) That is a re-quote, not (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I'm glad *you* can understand what "none" means. (...) You are correct, it is not all that clear what I mean (from my perspective). I was agreeing that the lion's view can not be viewed within a moral framework, but I also think they should (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Really? Do you understand what "none" means? (...) Duane, read what I wrote again: "Calling an animal moral/immoral/amoral is anthropomorphic - that belongs in childrens books." (...) fact the lion's. (...) Irony. (...) I can not comapre my (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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Tom, try reading the whole thread before you jump in with your one-liners. Scott A (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Shock : Larry does not want me to! (...) Just what am I dodging? (...) And there are those were you are just plain unwilling to justify yourself – do you deny that? (...) hmm "gut feeling". If your view is just a "gut feeling", perhaps you (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Not willing to answer? Scott A (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) No. An ability determines the claim to a right. Back up a few decades for a moment... it would be pure foolishness for me to claim the right of flight as I do not have the ability to fly...now, return to the present... I still do not have the (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) So inferring ones own morals on others is conceited, but inferring "your society's" is not? Why not? (...) So soceity is conceited? If not, why not? If inferring an individual's morals on another is conceited, why is inferring a society's (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Well, I'm an athiest, so I just internally translate anything to do with God into a similar sentence something like "my belief". So god-given rights would become something like "the rights I believe in" (roughly speaking). I think athiests (...) (24 years ago, 4-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) How well do humans understand morality? I doubt animals would have the same idea of morality as humans, heck even different humans have different ideas... (...) Type "pit bull attack" into your favourite search engine. Do these animals know (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Before someone points out my error, I'll just correct myself here. It can be argued, and come to think of it, I think *should* be argued that self-consciousness *is* the prerequisite (sp?) of which I was speaking-- I merely was assuming a (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I whole-heartedly agree. However, in order to argue that animals do *NOT* have it and that humans *DO*, something must be different. But I don't argue that. Accepting the premise that animals *DON'T*, I hold that at some *point*, morality (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) You're creating a false dichotomy between a la "it must happen at specific point X, or else it cannot happen at all." This is simply untrue. I would assert that, far from occuring at a single, threshhold point, morality is a system of values (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) The question is, what constitutes proof of morality? Prove to me that *you* have a concept of morality. Perhaps morality itself is instinctive, even? Once you can draw the hard line between instinct and intelligence you've made a tremendous (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) <snipped some stuff here and there> (...) Same could be asked about women with motherhood (motherly instincts). How much is learned, how much is hard wired? Most people disagree but I really believe that people are hard wired with so many more (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Why? He's done it before. Why enable him dodging a simple yes no question by urging him to indulge himself rather than urging a straight answer? Besides, I freely admit that I don't always have all the answers nor do I always answer every (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: My reload button
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(...) LOL! I'm with you on this one Chris. -Duane (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | My reload button
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Sometimes when I'm actively reading off-topic.debate, I just leave a browser window up and periodically go back and reload the page to see if anything new has been posted. If I'm actively involved in one or more threads, the name of the reload (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I wasn't actually saying I do or don't-- I was just asking to try and probe Scott a little further. Socratic method, I guess... I'm not really exploring and/or defending my own standpoint with Scott yet-- I'm trying to figure out where he (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I for one would actually like to see you do that. Demonstrate away.... (...) Speaking of language, could you try re-stating that again? That is a very difficult sentence to read - and I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth. (...) Leave it (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Ah, excellent. But then see below. (...) (URL) for those (like me) who hate to follow links: Scott: (...) Chris: (...) Scott: (...) So, in that case, perhaps I should ask this: Were you wrong to agree? Or were to agreeing with something else? (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) First, you still haven't clarified what you were agreeing to above. Second, by saying that animals ar not moral, immoral or amoral you do not add to the discussion by not stating what you beleive. I interpret your stance as either 1)animals (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Larry, At this point I am tempted to dig up all the old posts you have not answered - where the questions were *very* direct. All those ones were you were unable to justify yourself. Unable to back you own argument. Unable to show us your (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) None. Calling an animal moral/immoral/amoral is anthropomorphic - that belongs in childrens books. (...) I can't find the post you refer to. (...) No, inferring ones own morals on others is. If an individual makes a donation to a charity they (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Good restatement. Good luck getting a straight answer though. I agree that we ought not to infer or impute human characteristics of animals unless they are demonstrably present. That's why I think of animals as amoral, because I tend to (with (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I'm not sure what infering our morals on them really means, but I do agree that we are anthropocentric in our judgement of other critters. But I'm not sure a) that this is a bad thing, or b) that it is possible to get away from. How would we (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) No no, your position on whether animals are moral/immoral OR amoral. Do you think they are moral/immoral or amoral? If your position is in fact the one above then you wouldn't be allowing yourself to even HAVE an opinion on the issue, and yet (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I think that until we have clear evidence that animals understand morality, we have to assume that they probably don't. Even if an animal does lots of nice things, I wouldn't call it moral unless it had the ability to decide to do not-nice (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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I'm responding to various layers here...not just Frank. (...) hits. (...) It seems that your observation of an animal acting on what I think could be explained through instinct and self-interest has lead you to assign morality. I'm not convinced. (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) So you really do believe that ability == right. Why even use the word right instead of ability? Ability has no confusing connotations to other members of society, after all. (...) This I won't buy. I just zipped over to dictionary.com to show (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) My wife (who was on the pill the entire time I knew her, prior to our attempt at pregnancy) suffered very slight physical discomfort from her cycle. However, when she was premenstrual, she was quite simply irrational and agressive. (Of course, (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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At this moment I am drinking Mountain Dew; Code Red. I have the ability to drink it and have chosen to do so. The right to drink it is mine, I have given this right to myself. If, this afternoon, I were to learn that the governments of the world (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) OK, they were your points - I stand corrected. BTW : the questions you posed did remind me of an American stereotype we often see here. What I mean are those who say that they have "god given" rights. I always think that, in an agnostic (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I don't see this as a case of avoiding the point. I don't see any point in Lar (or anyone) rushing to answer these questions - I don't feel they have any real answer, they're kinda rhetorical, intended to get people to think about where rights (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Is might right, or just a reality? (Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) This is a very interesting point. I think most of us would say that might is not right. However, although he may just be talking about animals, Chrisis right when he says "Might makes reality". In most of our day-to-day lives might does win (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) If you mean you avoid the point(1), and I don't - I agree. (...) This sounds almost threatening. You must be pretty thin skinned Larry. Do you keep a little black book of all of those who "no longer have standing" with you, or do you use (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) This is how I feel thus it is true to me. I think the fundemental condition of "right" already existed in nature, as nature is our inspiration for nearly everything else-- art, music, even science. Our arts often try to capture that essence (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) *Little* problems? Ho ho ho... I dunno, I wouldn't call them that little. <only half tongue in cheek here> I know this varies, but some people I know, me included, have a lot more than just a "little" problem with the period. And I dislike the (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) During pregnancy, women do experience a "condition" (my wife is dealing with it right now). She is less able to perform physically. She goes to the car most work days and takes a one hourish nap. And she makes up the time. But she just _could (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Well, the idea is (in my mind) that morality in general has some "root" to it in order to be deemed morality at all. Heck, your morality is just as misplaced when ported to me as when mine is ported to a dog. And yet we do both. Are our (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) What about dolphins which have saved people with probably no real opportunity for bonding? My feeling is that most of what makes us human is not unique to us, but is exhibited to at least some degree by other animals. It is interesting to note (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Important point to keep in mind: amoral does not equal immoral. Immorality implies that the converse--morality--exists. But can't a competing, "dog idea" of morality exist? Why must human morality be ported to a dog, when moralism is (...) (24 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Good examples! Dogs are pack animals, it is true. Is that sufficient to explain these behaviours? I don't know. Saving one's meal ticket would exhibit forethought. Do dogs have such? The conventional answer is that they don't, so that's not an (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I was off by a bit: "To have a right ... is ... to have something which society ought to defend me in the possession of." And also: "When we call anything a person's right, we mean that he has a valid claim on society to protect him in the (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) OK. You asserted "animals are amoral" with nothing to back it up. Go type "dog hero" into your favourite search engine, look through the list of hits. Many acts can be explained by (the dog exhibiting) self preservation, but what causes a dog (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Being the relative moralist that I am, I'll push that one step further and say I don't believe there *are* "natural" or "fundamental" rights. It's a moral definition humans create based on an emotional response. Perhaps, however, there are (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I was exploring the idea that perhaps the only fundamental right is the right to an impartial "rights based" mediation of disputes. This does suggest why animals then don't specifically have rights since they don't have the capability to (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Here is my take on the subject: From my dictionary here at work "Right (noun) - Something due to a person or governmental body by law." There are other definitions, but I feel that this one is the most relevant to the discussion. By this (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) Well, yes and no. If you know or can establish that the person you are debating has a fundamentally different view of a basic principle, and has a track record of never changing their mind, it may be that the "best" you can do is get that (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Perpetuating folly is a flaw in anyone who does it, including me. When you and Scott go at it, you are equally at fault in perpetuating the folly of arguing with someone that has given you no cause to believe they will ever see reason (as you (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I'd go farther than speculating, I'd assert it, unless someone can prove that some specific animals do reason morally, in which case I'd consider that we might want to consider them as "human" rather than "merely" animal. (a tangential SF (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Thanks, Dave.I think this pretty beautifully illustrates the fundamental difference between Scott and myself, and between our debating styles. (charitably extending the term in one case) And it may illustrate why it irks me greatly when people (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Hah! Beautiful work, Dave! (...) Yes, Dave is right-- it seems evident here, Scott. I know you guys always disagree and you'll never convince each other to see an issue the same way so just agree to disagree. The world does not revolve around (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) Paid Time Off & Paid Flex Time -Duane <snip> (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) Yeah, it's too bad people choose dishonesty. It's their honor I guess and it will catch up to them sooner or later. I love watching "Dateline" or "20/20" when they catch people in insurance scams. A guy has "back problems" from a work related (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) I would speculate, along with Larry, that animals do not have a system of rights in the same form as humans do. But I don't think we invented the condition of rights as much as they revealed themselves to us through nature. Do you think this (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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I'm very confused. Chris: (...) Scott: (...) Larry: (...) Scott: (...) Scott, please clarify. What *is* your position? Or is it merely whatever Larry is *not*? (...) Do you not do the same? Don't I? Doesn't Larry? Don't all morally conscious (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) A little of both dishonesty, laziness, and subconsious bias. And certain people would abuse it more than others, I think-- and of course SOME people abusing it leads to more, when their abuse becomes apparent. And SOME become offended. Etc. (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) 1st off, just to get it out of the way, what's PTO/PFT? Anyway, you sound like you're saying *equal* charity for *all*, yes? But that really doesn't follow from my own assumptions of what charity is-- charity being that which is selfless, and (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) My aim was to show how western morels have treated these two so differently. One is bought by the west so he can go on trial for murder, the other is given ~3.5 billion dollars in aid per year so that he may continue to murder. At the same (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) No, it sounds like you are puuting words in my mouth. (...) You "pass judgement" on others too much. Who are you to infer your moral values on others - judging them by your own standard? Do you assume you are the role model they should aspire (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) What is you point? (...) To Ross : Don't expect Larry to justify anything. (...) Larry, what are you taking about? Do you suggest the lion should eat grass? Or that the wildebeest should carry a gun? (...) Same as what? The same as you? Do you (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) To what end? Your implication seems to be simply that there are bad people. But we all know that. The discussion of what a 'right' actually is, has nothing to do (in my mind, at least) with whether or not certain people respect rights, or even (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Sounds like you agree, then: animals are amoral. They do not have morals or recognise rights the way that creatures with a developed reasoning system do. Note that to be amoral if you are not capable of being moral is not bad, it is not good, (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I agree. But calling the lion, in this case, amoral makes it sound like it has a choice? (...) Dead animals don’t run away. Dead animals don’t jab you with their big pointy horns. (...) You may be right. I am no expert. (...) The problem with (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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(...) It sounds like you're were going somewhere good and have given up Larry. I assume (hope!) your goal in all this was not to get to the point where you could just tell folks that they don't understand rights. I think there must be common (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Look up the difference between amoral and immoral. There is nothing *immoral* about it, but it most certainly IS amoral, unless you think animals reason about morality and make ethical decisions. (To Ross, it's more reasonable to ask that you (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) It doesn't. You aren't the initiator of force. (...) If you initiate the use of force routinely you're not human in my book. (...) See above. ++Lar (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) fact (...) whoever (...) Your emoticon implies that you're kidding. I'm not. I think your statement cuts right to the hear of what our rights actually are. But the difference I was pointing to is that we don't invest rights in certain classes (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Disagree. Nothing makes 'right.' Might makes reality. (...) Additionally, they can choose to be immoral, which I'm wonder if people in this thread are forgetting is not the same as amoral. (...) I think there is. Neither the lion nor the (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) that (...) But you could argue that rights we've given to ourselves are just privileges that we all happen to agree on. Based mostly on the fact that we'll sue whoever disagrees. 8?) (...) I think "rights" has no real meaning or usefulness (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) [snip] (...) This is an interesting point. Maybe the things that animals do resemble our rights cloely enough that we could sometimes call them rights. The dominant chicken (almost always a rooster, if one is present) does have the right to (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) There is nothing amoral about a lion killing a wilder beast with all its might – it is its natural right to do so. A lion will kill its prey as quickly and cleanly as it can – it does not pump it full of antibiotics and growth hormones first. (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) But nature allows killing for the sake of survival. I have no problem taking the life of any human being who is trying to take my life or my wife's or child, and I have no problem being absolutely brutal in doing so if it means survival. If (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) I think you need to reread my posts then. What I am arguing for is justice for ALL, which would negate the need to even consider charity. If everyone had equal PTO/PFT, regardless of the reason, this debate wouldn't even have had a reason to (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Evidence? (...) Again, do you have evidence that other animals *can't* choose? (...) We may be higher on the sliding "moral" scale than most animals, but I don't agree that all other animals are at the bottom (ie totally amoral). I think (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) <snipped some intersting stuff> (...) Right! People have different ideas of what is most important in their lives, and life in general. For some people it's their family, others their friends, some people are just plain hedonistic and live for (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) Unless you are amoral, the fact that you can kill someone does not mean, in and of itself, that you have the RIGHT to do so. It merely means that you have the ability to do so. Animals are amoral. In their system, might makes right. Humans, (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) So be it then, Dan. Clearly your idea of rights is far different from mine, and I will indeed take your statements about rights with a grain of salt since your definition, from my perspective, is flawed. ++Lar (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes: [snip] (...) Like so many other political & corporate policies.... ROSCO (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) Potentially being one of the subjects of this post (?) I'd like to make a distinction here-- I think the first time I was forced to realize it was reading Emanuel Levinas-- the distinction between the morals of charity and justice. Justice is (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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Is man-kind still considered a mammal by the science community or did I miss out on the "breakthrough" that proves we are not actually animals? Despite the appearence of higher intelligence and "moral" decision making and assuming we are still (...) (24 years ago, 2-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) They both equal natural "rights" to try to thrive and succeed. If both are in competition, the one that can reproduce more or faster, or finds a niche in a specific environment, may be the one who survives longer. Look at "Africanized" honey (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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<snipped your statement> Well said, Kirby! Thanks. Dan (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) The only thing I'd add to that is that it's not black & white - some creatures have what zoologists call "hierarchys" within groups (including the aforementioned lion). This, as I see it, is a sort of set of "rights" given to those higher up (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: someone has to say it...
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(...) Can you give an example here? I think it's rather cold and callous to talk about unlimited rights to reproduce without regard to the fact that it's not practically possible to allow such rights to exist, nad that you're setting false (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough. I agree that rights aren't "what you are capable of enforcing". That's too amoral. Rights derive from fundamentals about people (and other reasoning moral beings should some be constructed or discovered in (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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(...) I want to leave people out of this at least for a bit. While your point is valid, it is not necessarily helping the question get any clearer. Just stick to two different species of bacteria, interacting in a natural environment with no people (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | someone has to say it...
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With regards to some of the replys in the "sexism" debate... Do you really think that choosing to raise a family is tatamount to inflicting a prohibitive "medical condition" on ones self? Is a persons only purpose in life to work for a corporate (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) I think that the notion of rights is wholly a construct of man. You know you have a right when the other humans around you generally agree that you do and respect that right. The rights of people are not innate and they have been and will (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) No, I wouldn't say it's a directive force. Paraphrasing what you said, the results speak for themselves after the fact. (...) Sloppy, eh? Yeah, I guess it can look that way sometimes. When you say a gene is lost, you mean that it is not passed (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Is this sexism?
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(...) I'm not sure if you meant it this way, or were just going quickly, but I think that sounds like a circular argument and maybe anthropomorphic. "Bad" genes are only defined after the fact because they failed to propogate. It sounds like you are (...) (24 years ago, 1-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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