Subject:
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Re: Nature of rights? (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 2 Jul 2001 20:08:31 GMT
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Viewed:
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703 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> > If I could hear from them what it is that makes something a natural right,
> > maybe that would clear things up a little. The only potential objection that I
> > have at the outset of this, is that it seemed sometimes that people were
> > defining these natural rights simply as the ability to act a way. If 'natural
> > right' and 'ability' are synonyms, then what's the point in using a more
> > complicated phrase to discuss it? There must, it seems, be something that
> > distinguishes between these rights and abilities.
>
> I would speculate, along with Larry, that animals do not have a system of
> rights in the same form as humans do.
I'd go farther than speculating, I'd assert it, unless someone can prove
that some specific animals do reason morally, in which case I'd consider
that we might want to consider them as "human" rather than "merely" animal.
(a tangential SF flight of fancy, I enjoy books in which, for example,
dolphins have acquired sentience somehow and interact with humans. N.B. it
usually is human intervention (read meddling or hubris if you're so inclined
to view it that way) that caused it)
> But I don't think we invented the
> condition of rights as much as they revealed themselves to us through nature.
That's an interesting assertion. I am sure it should lead to some
interesting discussion, because I'm not exactly clear on how you would go
about showing this to be the case. Do you have any ideas on how to show this
to be true? It may not be a provable assertion.
> Do you think this topic would be clearer if we analyze it in the sense of
> "natural right" as the least destructive or disasterous effect to nature in
> general? Going back to Larry's example of bacteria, if a bacteria thrives
> and provides the basis of the food chain then it is "right" in the sense
> that it makes a positive contribution. Likewise if a bacteria is parasitic
> and destroys other organisms it is also "right" because it helps control the
> population. That's the system of natural checks and balances that form the
> foundation of natural rights, in my opinion. I hope that helps.
I suppose I am just reiterating myself but I'm not sure I see how it does
help. It just seems to be an elaboration of the notion (which I think Chris
got at too) that anything that an organism is capable of doing is a "right".
I think, but am not sure, that this is logically equivalent to what you are
saying.
That notion seems fundamentally incorrect to me because I view most (that
is, the non human) organisms as amoral, and hence, not executing a calculus
of rights in their interactions with other organisms.
> Modern people are an exception because they defy nature with technology that
> mostly contributes to disaster and depletion rather than equilibrium and
> renewal. They violate the "natural right" or right-of-way for many organisms
> to thrive and renew the earth. The effect is often disasterous, such as
> carbon monoxide pollution, toxic rain, ozone depletion, global warming and
> other manmade calamities that could have been avoided if we didn't mistake
> foolishness for progress.
Yes, we're pretty clear that you hold that viewpoint, thanks for reiterating
it, but again I don't see how it adds much to the discussion of the narrow
point of whether "all organisms have the right to reproduce". I say they
don't, they only have the ability, or the right to try, if you'd rather.
++Lar
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