Subject:
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Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:49:54 GMT
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Viewed:
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718 times
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I'm responding to various layers here...not just Frank.
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> > > OK. You asserted "animals are amoral" with nothing to back it up. Go type
> > > "dog hero" into your favourite search engine, look through the list of • hits.
> > > Many acts can be explained by (the dog exhibiting) self preservation, but
> > > what causes a dog to jump into a flooding river & drag out a human? What
> > > causes a dog to drag a human back home after he experienced a heart attack?
It seems that your observation of an animal acting on what I think could be
explained through instinct and self-interest has lead you to assign morality.
I'm not convinced. I'm quite convinced that dogs exhibit emotion, problem
solving skills, a sense of self, and pretty sophisticated intellect. But I
don't see a claim for morality. But I'm also not saying it isn't there. Your
presented 'evidence' however, I find lacking.
> > Good examples! Dogs are pack animals, it is true. Is that sufficient to
> > explain these behaviours? I don't know. Saving one's meal ticket would
> > exhibit forethought. Do dogs have such? The conventional answer is that they
> > don't, so that's not an explanation either.
Or the conventional explanation is silly. Of course dogs have forethought.
Not like ours, but they clearly understand that things will happen in the
future, and they know how to make things happen. Forethought and pack-related
instinct easily accounts for all of Lassie's miracles.
> > Are these examples of morals? Or just of bonding? I don't know.
>
> What about dolphins which have saved people with probably no real
> opportunity for bonding?
Good call! On the other hand, if you were going to get someone to acknowledge
that another animal is like humans in cognition, dolphins would be animal of
choice. But like dogs saving lives, dolphins don't have to do it out of
morality. Is it true that if a dolphin is sick, others push it to the surface
so it can breathe? How do we know that's a thought through action rather than
an instinctual response?
> My feeling is that most of what makes us human
> is not unique to us, but is exhibited to at least some degree by other
> animals.
Agreed.
> It is interesting to note that most (all?) of the animals which
> seem to share some of the characteristics we tend to associate with
> "human intelligence" are pack animals.
That only makes sense. We are more able to anthropomorphize critters that are
already more like us.
> I have seen very few examples of things proposed as uniquely human
> traits that I have not seen at least some degree of in animals. I think
> I even disagree with the lack of forethought in animals.
Of course...unless I'm misunderstanding what Larry thinks forethought means.
My rats, just like dogs, clearly knew stuff and knew there was a future. Or
they had pretty sophisticated programming. (So much so that if we call it that
in them, I'd wonder if we shouldn't be calling it that in ourselves.)
> I wonder how much better we'd understand intelligence
> and the brains function if we didn't work so hard to put ourselves as
> something unique and above animals.
You mean brain scientists, or us man-on-the-street types?
> I'm also not sure how unique our tendency to kill our own kind is. Many
> (most?) animals do kill their own kind if there is a resource crunch. I
> think that can be found to be the root cause of most human strife.
I think we paint it that way. But people who aren't actually in need still
cause wars and such.
> On the other hand, we do seem to be unique on this world. I've got to
> believe that if any other species had the combination of capabilities
> which we have and use to build our culture that the two species would
> have figured out how to say "hello" to each other.
I think so too. Which means that no other critter lucked into our combination
of talents and resources. That doesn't mean that they are so different from us
as people typically make out.
Chris
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