Debate : 11357


Off-Topic / Debate / 11357	11356 \| 11358

Subject:	Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
Newsgroups:	lugnet.off-topic.debate
Date:	Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:35:15 GMT
Viewed:	926 times

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: > It seems that your observation of an animal acting on what I think could be > explained through instinct and self-interest has lead you to assign morality. > I'm not convinced. I'm quite convinced that dogs exhibit emotion, problem > solving skills, a sense of self, and pretty sophisticated intellect. But I > don't see a claim for morality. But I'm also not saying it isn't there. Your > presented 'evidence' however, I find lacking. The question is, what constitutes proof of morality? Prove to me that *you* have a concept of morality. Perhaps morality itself is instinctive, even? Once you can draw the hard line between instinct and intelligence you've made a tremendous breakthrough-- primarily because I personally think that thought is instinctive :) Do dogs have a moral sense? I think so. Is it on our level? No, probably not. But then again, it requires a definition of morality, which I think is developmental based on both a social perception and emotional desire. We develop morality by equating others' desires with our own-- and personally I think those traits are open to animals... just not fully explored... > Good call! On the other hand, if you were going to get someone to acknowledge > that another animal is like humans in cognition, dolphins would be animal of > choice. The tricky part is defining where the line gets drawn. Not to pull back evolution as a topic, but how about the Ancient Egyptians? How about cavemen? How about Cro-magnon man? How about monkeys? Etc. At what *specific point* (and yes there must be one to say that animals don't and we do, unless you don't accept evolution) does morality come into the picture? At what *MOMENT* do humans posess morality? When we're a 2-celled organism? 3-months? 12? 2 years? What has to happen to merit being called moral? Selecting the dolphin isn't really any better of a choice than a tortoise, except that as humans, we feel that we are closer to dolphins. DaveE

Message has 2 Replies:

		Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
(...) You're creating a false dichotomy between a la "it must happen at specific point X, or else it cannot happen at all." This is simply untrue. I would assert that, far from occuring at a single, threshhold point, morality is a system of values (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

		Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
(...) Don't I do this by discussing concepts of morality with you? (...) Do you mean the ability to conceive of morality and the lack there of, and different sets of morals? Or do you mean the tendency to act in a way that we consider moral? (...) (...) (23 years ago, 7-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Message is in Reply To:

		Re: 3 Question (was: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?)
(...) What about dolphins which have saved people with probably no real opportunity for bonding? My feeling is that most of what makes us human is not unique to us, but is exhibited to at least some degree by other animals. It is interesting to note (...) (23 years ago, 3-Jul-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

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