Debate : 7651


Off-Topic / Debate / 7651

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Charles Eric McCarthy

(...) An atheist believes there is no God. An atheist may have other beliefs, such as "people are intrinsically good" or "I am intrinsically good." Also, doing good as an atheist could be more self-rewarding than doing good as a Christian. An (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) Which leads me to ask if you are an atheist? If you are I'd ask you to consider the tenuousness of your position. (see my thoughts on that in another thread of this...) -Jon (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Charles Eric McCarthy

(...) Saw it. Nope, I'm agnostic. Not as rewarding as being an atheist, because maybe I'm being good just to hedge my bets. :-) /Eric McC/ (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler

Inasmuch as I'm reluctant to enter into discourse with an Eric... (...) Ah! The watered-down form of Pascal's Wager--don't get me started! 8^) Dave! (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —James Powell

(...) Hey, it stands to reason, what you need is a good satanist. Why? Well, because god will forgive you, whereas the guy downstairs...well...he don't forgive! James (and a free lego brick to ID the book that comes from...it's SF) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Tenuous in what way? Were you saying it's logicially unsupportable, or were you threatening fire and brimstone? The latter? If your (stipulated to exist for the sake of this sentence) god sends me to hell, he's not worthy of my worship. I will (...) (24 years ago, 30-Nov-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) I can just see you as a child at the local amusement park: walking up to the roller coaster where the clown stands with his hand out saying if you're not this tall you can't ride the roller coaster. I can imagine little self-righteous ++Lar (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl

But YOUR god (assuming he exists) sets the rules, so even if a person goes to hell for their perceived sins, they go there because God made them, through the rules. God, if he truly loved his children, would allow ALL into heaven, regardless of (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler

(...) One could argue that God truly loves His children and so gives them the choice to accept or reject His love. In a way, that's a more mature and respectful love than simply saying "I love you so you're in, whether you love me or not." Moreover, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal

(...) Precisely. Excellent point, Dave! (...) Yes. BTW, although clumsy, I try and not refer to God with the masculine pronoun, unless I am specifically referring to the metaphor of God as the Father and we as His children. God is too big for a (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler

(...) Thanks! It's fun to switch-hit once in a while! (...) Makes sense. I was just subscribing to the big-H "He" tradition, but I wasn't trying to make a statement in my choice of pronoun. Dave! (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) So, Dave - what do you really believe? -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl

Why does it matter when debating? Devil's advocate is often the best debating form. (...) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | Please do not associate my personal views with my employer (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) Certainly. But it avoids having to state your own positions which _is_ a requirement in real debating. So, Tom, what do you believe? -Jon (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl

I'm going to pull a Larry here - plowed ground, I've already stated my belief in this group, do your research. You must have a strange definition of debating. IN NO WAY do you have to state your own position to debate. In fact, some of the best (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal

Tom Stangl wrote:. (...) I agree wholeheartedly; in fact, I think it is the *best* way to gain an understanding of an opposing viewpoint. All I can ask a skeptic is to presuppose the existence of God for the sake of argument. Get somewhat (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I am lazy and act in my own self interest as much of the time as I possibly can. And I'm afraid too... Afraid I consider those virtues rather than the denigrating characteristics you make them out to be. I'm not "most people", believe me, but (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) (Larry - you and my brother are so similar it's scary.) I, however, would like to know what it is that _you_believe_. Perhaps you've posted it already, and if so, please point me in the right direction. Beyond all the "standard" arguements on (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) If I ain't gonna do easy homework for Dr. Scott (who at least, of late, has been posting some incredibly interesting cites, asking thoughtful questions, and conceding a point here and there (not all of them, mind you :-) ) when he's wrong) I (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) Contrary to your opinion, I didn't skulk away. I'm busy enough trying in every free minute (the few that I have) to keep up with those who spend their entire day in this group :-O Just for you, I'll revisit the posting, and reply. (...) I'm (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) Ah, but it wasn't a "rant" was it? You're just upset that I beat you at your own game. :D Bill (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I'll let it speak for itself, but I find coherency helpful. (...) That implies that I'm a sore loser. On the contrary, I relish losing a hard fought battle against a skilled opponent. Why, just today at lunch, my officemates managed to defeat (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) Yep - the posting statistics are pretty scary in this group. -Jon (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) And yet that was the point. OK, I'm typing really slow here, try to keep up. I was acting like *you* when you go into your little rants to illustrate that you ain't all you think you are. You stepped in it, didn't even see it coming, and are (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) Ooops, Bud Light! (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) I can't debate unless _you_ state, or refer me to your position. Call me lazy, but I couldn't find what you personally believe stated. I tried a few searches, but I don't have time to ready 7000+ messages in this group alone... and then puzzle (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl

If it matters (which it doesn't), I am basically agnostic. I won't believe without proof, and NOONE to date has shown proof. I "have faith" that I am right, that God doesn't exist until he taps me on the shoulder, so noone will really be able to (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

Thank-you Tom. I just wanted to be sure exactly where you stand. It's tough posting with people you aren't at all sure of where they stand. So, your belief systems says that you don't know if there is a God. And if there is you need some hard (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl

I need Hard Evidence. And The Bible isn't it. (...) -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | Please do not associate my personal views with my employer (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler

(...) Having read some of the follow-up fallout to that question, I'd like to ask you a question in return before I answer--what do you think I believe, given my stance here and in whatever debates you've read previously? I'm not squirming, by the (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) He has done just that. He made a way for everyone to enter, some don't want it. I have to object to your statement "regardless of sin", though. You can't justify that statement. If he is holy, he can't do that. Also, for sake of argument, what (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I think what is generally meant when your God is called petty and vengeful is a reference to the popular assertion that regardless of how good we act, if we fail to suck up to him, we go to hell. That's probably what Tom means. It's certainly (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) Understood. The point is not how good someone is, we are expected to be good, no brownie points there. Being good is breaking even. The problem is in the deficits we allow. How do we make up for our mistakes? Apologize and correct it in the (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) we (...) Why? Seriously. Is the creation of an individual human life a reasonable analogy? Do you advocate parents having the same rights over their children that you are accepting of your God having over us? (...) I think that creating life (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) All of the following answers are predicated upon a belief that the Bible is true and these answers solely represent It's content. This is not an attempt to "assimilate" anyone. It is merely answers to question posed. (...) Because it's His (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) It sounds like a sucky deal to me. (...) I see. So the right to drop your kids in vats of acid only comes with lots of love. (One might say so much love that we can't really experience it, right?) (...) amusement. (...) But wasn't Satan (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) Fair enough. (...) Dealt with that below. Not equivalent. (...) God didn't create Satan. He created Lucifer, who was His Archangel. Lucifer coveted God's position and wanted to be like God and receive man's worship. A third of God's angels (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl

(...) Knowing that it would happen, but creating Lucifer anyways, he in effect DID cause it. Just as he has caused all sin in history, as he created everyone knowing exactly what would happen. (...) Sure he did - he created us, knowing we would (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —David Eaton

(...) That's the long disputed point-- and to that end, how about the question "If God can do anything, can he make a problem so difficult that HE can't solve it?" Basically, the Christian idea of free will says to me that God allowed for the (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) Knowing is not the same as causing. Parents teach their children to walk knowing that they will fall during the process. Does that mean that they pushed them? Did they cause them to fall? No, of course not. All of Gid's attributes must (...) (24 years ago, 6-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl

(...) So what you are saying is the OT is wrong, the NT is right? The ORIGINAL thoughts and ideas written (by PEOPLE, remember) were too icky, so they watered them down in the NT, and you choose to believe the adulterated ideas? <squirm, squirm> (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) Not at all. The OT served it's purpose - according to Galations it's purpose was to lead us to Christ. The Law served as a vehicle to make manifest the condition of man. Jeremiah 31:31-34 opens the door for the NT which will supersede the Old. (...) (24 years ago, 5-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) But there's the rub. No one goes to hell for their sins! How could they if Christ paid for them? The answer follows the famous John 3:16, thru the end of the chapter. Read it for yourself. Bill (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Dave Schuler

(...) Hmm.. That's interesting, and I hadn't considered it that way. My understanding was that Christ's death provided atonement for Originial Sin, but I didn't realize it's applications to sins-in-progress. Is that part of the "new and everlasting (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Right you are, Bill. They go to Hell for not rubbing blue mud in their bellybuttons (1). Er, that is, for not accepting Christ's love, putting aside whatever logical qualms about the contradictoriness, unprovability, or non-necessity of God's (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) I remember this from the first time it was brought up :) Talk about mental images!? (...) <Typical ++Blather> Many of your "qualms" are based on your own misconceptions. (...) I like this. Again, I'm with ya on that one. (...) You betray (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Is this what you say to everyone whose hackles raise at being enslaved? "Oh, so you're someone else's property. So someone else gets to play with you as a toy and if you're not entertaining, put you to death. Grouse, whine, cry! Just get over (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) No one here is enslaved! The above whining is based on a misconception about Diety. Many people in history have been enslaved and don't whine about it or blame it for why they can't get ahead. No, I have no patience for whining. It's a Marine (...) (24 years ago, 3-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Is your heaven like a roller coaster, so dangerous then that it needs rules to keep people out, because it's "unsafe" for them, who would qualify for the other brands of rides (merry go round, ferris wheel, and other rides)/heavens??? I'm a (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) I can hear Britney singing, "Ooops, I did it again...", right now. LAR!! You fell for trap #3. You're making this too easy. I'm waiting for trap #2 also. Will he see it? Will he side-step it? Ignore it? Fall right in like he has twice already? (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) something that bears repeating... (...) ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre

(...) So you gave irrelevant illustrations and get responses about how irrelevant was. I just can't see any genius trap in it. You obviously seem to see so, but again, I still can't figure out what do you want the achieve with this plan of yours, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Lindsay Frederick Braun

[Much snippage] (...) I can see where he's going with it. It's an old chestnut, basically that only the brave and committed--those above 'so tall' (or is it a statement on predestination--only those predisposed to being this tall? Bill, have you (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) No - I'm not a Calvinist, not Arminian either. I don't accept all of either of their writings. Calvin claimed to be infallable! Couldn't take him seriously after that. Arminius I liked a little more, but don't agree with most of what he says - (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) I want to answer this a little better now that I have more time: As to Calvinism - I don't buy into the whole hyper-Calvinistic TULIP thing, but I do believe in predestination in the way that Selcuk described it earlier (in reference to (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) Zoinks! I forget this part in my second reply - I'm still heavily medicated! The analogy was only intended to be about Larry as a child (--Lar) on a roller coaster, which actually means it's not really an analogy, I suppose. I was only (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal

Bill Farkas wrote: Speaking of Calvin...;-) -John <snip> (...) <snip> (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Bill Farkas

(...) Who said anything about heaven? That was part of the trap...you assuming too much. The other part of the trap is your incessant ability to nitpick about minor things and miss the entire, OBVIOUS point. This was not about theology, it was about (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal

(...) Self-rewarding good-doing isn't by definition altruistic. (...) Christians certainly don't do good for fear of hell. Christianity 101: Saved by Grace. Nothing anyone can do can curry God's love-- it is unconditionally given. Christians do (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Tom Stangl

(...) Earning brownie points to get into heaven is self-rewarding, so I guess you are saying Christians are NEVER altruistic? (...) Yet your god sends people to Hell. "I love you, but go suffer for an eternity". No thanks. -- Tom Stangl ***(URL) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Frank Filz

(...) Well, there are Christians who claim that it doesn't matter what you do, if you are among the "elect", you've already got your ticket to heaven. Now I guess they can still claim that God is the force that motivates them to good, but so many (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Nobody HERE ever does that, though. ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Scott Arthur

(...) “Science has proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof.” - Ashley Montague I was thinking about god last night. I think part of the problem with parts of this debate is the need of modern society to break (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal

(...) Tom, you are not *listening*-- one more time, because it is the crux of the Gospel (Good News) *There is NOTHING you can do to EARN God's love. God loves us all THE SAME, whether we go around murdering children or serve him as Pope. God (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre

(...) I got the impression that the faith concept is a rather different in Christianity. I mean, as I know of from the Islam, faith means god knows everything, including our future, so he already knows how I will act in future cases. The same Islam (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) A popularly debated question in Christianity. Succinctly - 1) God knows everything - both past, present and future. 2) God exists apart from time and is not subject to it, ntering it as He wills. 3) God's knowledge doesn't equal control. Just (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre

(...) Uhm... Nothing different then, just same as the Islamic approach. Point 2 does not mean anything (what on earth does "apart from time and is not subject to it, entering it as he wills" mean to us poor human beings?), but for the other points, (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) Knowing (if I was God) something - a path is drawn - doesn't mean that I drew the line. You still draw the line - I am just a witness to it. Many, many people get hung up on this point. (...) Perhaps that's a theological point of departure for (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre

(...) Actually, that should be as: Everything is came from god, everything evolves under his control, either good or bad. Anyway, just for knowledge. By the way, for your other question, I was muslim before, now agnostic/atheist/don't care/etc., (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —John Neal

(...) I fully appreciate your questions. Anyone who argues here for the sake of argument is a fool and a waster of time. These questions for me strike at the very reason I choose to get up every day and live. Albert Camus, a great (IMO) (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Selçuk Göre

(...) Wow, that's the answer John. I really appreciated it. I think the only answer for any belief can be "I believe/don't believe it, because I like it this way ay don't feel any need to have any evidences for it" and till now you are the only one (...) (24 years ago, 4-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) Seems to me, Tom, that your struggling here... If God didn't allow us to suffer, He would be a controlling entity - and we mere automatons. We do have choise - that is required by true love. I'd be really interested to know what it is that you (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) *The Unitarian perks up* Now, if God is the alpha and omega, knows all past, present, and future, is there really any Free Will beyond simple human Brownian motion? That's the Calvinist model, that we don't really have Free Will, but that our (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Will Libertopia cause the needy to get less? —Jon Kozan

(...) Seems to me, Tom, that you're struggling here... If God didn't allow us to suffer, He would be a controlling entity - and we mere automatons. We do have choise - that is required by true love. I'd be really interested to know what it is that (...) (24 years ago, 1-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)