Subject:
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Re: Peace in the Mid-East?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:38:19 GMT
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Viewed:
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614 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes:
> I found that article pretty sketchy on facts I could agree readily agree with.
>
> The author of that article pointedly equates criticism of Israel with "Jew
> hatred" -- which to my mind is NOT the same thing at all. Hatred of a
> people for no reason is obviously a stupid thing. Measured criticism
> against a political entity, for the specific actions of that political
> entity, seems very reasonable to me.
>
> Please be careful to note that I very consciously separate people from the
> political entities that supposedly represent them. For example: I don't
> hold Shiri Dori responsible for the actions of Ariel Sharon any more so than
> I expect Shiri Dori would hold me responsible for the actions of that crazy
> George W. guy...What a state does, and what a people may do can be very
> different things. [A quick aside: whereas I'd be likely to have Shiri Dori
> over for dinner as an honored guest, I would feel soiled if George W. were
> to even step upon the welcome mat outside the door of my flat!]
>
> And how about these various quotes from that article:
>
> "The whole idea of a Palestinian nation and a Palestinian people is an
> invention of Arab propaganda" -- okay, but wasn't there a British
> protectorate called "Palestine"?
>
> "The only people to have lived continuously on the land "from time
> immemorial" are Jews." -- right, but didn't she just assert that: "Six
> hundred thousand Jewish refugees from Arab nations fled to Israel -- many in
> fear for their lives, most after having their property expropriated. They
> were assimilated by Israel." So, all of these Jews haven't been there for
> that long a time, certainly not since "time immemorial." Really, the whole
> point is moot, and sounds a lot like a moldy book appeal to pathos.
>
> "About the same number of Arab refugees fled what is now Israel, the West
> Ban and Gaza. They were not assimilated by the Arab nations, with whom they
> shared a common religion, ethnicity, history and language, but were instead
> herded into refugee camps the better to "return" to their homes after Israel
> was obliterated by Arab armies....<snip>... Further, these Arab refugees had
> no ancient tie to the land of "Palestine." Most were recent immigrants, a
> fact implicitly acknowledged by the United Nations when it altered the
> definition of refugee to apply to those who have lived "at least two years"
> in a location." -- Seems to me like most everyone there now immigrated there
> during this century. But why did these Arabs have to flee Israel? Who
> herded them into refugee camps? Ah, the moldy book argument -- dig it!
>
> "So many others have conquered, ruled, thrived and ultimately perished there
> that the list would take hundreds of pages. A mere sample would include:
> Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Kurds, Abbassids (Iraqis),
> Egyptians, Kharezmians (Genghis Khan), Mamluks, Mongols, Latins (Crusaders),
> Ottomans, French and English." -- and, er, what was your point again? O
> right, claims to the land since time immemorial...
>
> Now, I don't know if this is a perfect source of information, but I found it
> at http://www.jewfaq.org/israel.htm (a site webmastered by Tracey R Rich)
> and it seems like something I can more or less agree with:
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Jews were exiled from the land of Israel by the Romans in 135 C.E., after
> they defeated the Jews in a three-year war, and Jews did not have any
> control over the land again until 1948 C.E
Arabs have been the dominant culture in “Palestine” for well over 1000 years
(700ad?). However, as I understand it, that last Jewish kingdom in the M.E.
ended in ~400-500BC - But I'm open to correction on that(!).
Many cultures and civilisations have become mere footnotes in history.
Perhaps the Jewish culture could have been one of those. However, that
argument does not justify Israel’s attempt to secure its own future by
repeating the Jewish history of persecution on another culture.
>
> <big snip>
>
> After World War I, the land of Israel was part of Palestine, a British
> protectorate which included Israel and parts of Jordan and Egypt. In a
> letter from British foreign secretary Lord Balfour to Jewish financier Lord
> Rothschild, the British government expressed a commitment to creating a
> Jewish homeland in Palestine. This letter is commonly known as the Balfour
> Declaration of 1917.
The Balfour declaration is a much maligned/heralded document. It is also a
document which is seldom read. The part I quote below is important:
“His Majesty's Government views with favour the establishment in Palestine
of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours
to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood
that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious
rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and
political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”
i.e. The rights of those existing in Palestine were to be upheld, and their
view considered. The US government recognised this as being fundamental in 1922:
“… the United States of America favours the establishment in Palestine of a
national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that
nothing shall be done which will prejudice the civil and religious rights of
Christian and all other non-Jewish communities in Palestine, and that the
holy places and religious buildings and sites in Palestine shall be
adequately protected.”
Scott A
> After the declaration, Jewish immigration to Israel
> expanded rapidly, but little actual progress was made toward the
> establishment of a Jewish state until after the Holocaust destroyed a third
> of the world's Jewish population.
>
> In 1947, the British handed the problem of the Jewish state to the
> newly-founded United Nations, which developed a partition plan dividing
> Palestine into Jewish and Arab portions. The plan was ratified in November
> 1947, the new State of Israel was proclaimed on May 14, 1948 and British
> troops pulled out of Palestine.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> BTW, isn't that an almost 1800 year break in the time immemorial scheme?!
>
> But, you know what? We are well past whether the creation of Israel was or
> was not a good idea. People calling themselves Israelis live there, as do
> other persons calling themselves Palestinians.
>
> Tonight, as I write, I am just wondering why Ariel Sharon would be denying
> the U.N, the Red Cross, and Amnesty International entry into the city of
> Janin. [My source for this info is NPR, it was announced as part of a
> series of news highlights.]
>
> So thanks for the history lesson, but no thanks. I'd rather have quick
> lessons on how to get the Hatfields and the McCoys to make nice-nice in the
> M.E, because really that's what we have there -- a blood feud.
>
> The people of the M.E. fight just like the members of various gangs found in
> most major american cities nowadays -- which to me seems like a more
> pressing problem, since it exists in the land I call my home. You're
> probably thinking, "Yeah, but those gang members only imagine their turf
> conflicts."
>
> And the people of the M.E. are different how?
>
> -- Hop-Frog (this is what I do when I can't sleep -- I try to bore myself
> with world politics)
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Peace in the Mid-East?
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| I found that article pretty sketchy on facts I could agree readily agree with. The author of that article pointedly equates criticism of Israel with "Jew hatred" -- which to my mind is NOT the same thing at all. Hatred of a people for no reason is (...) (23 years ago, 24-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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