Subject:
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Re: Peace in the Mid-East?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 13 May 2002 11:36:08 GMT
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Viewed:
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772 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > > > Here is an Article by Mona Charen. I think anyone who cares about the • subject
> > > > > > should read it.
> > > > >
> > > > > The link now refers to the April 26th article, the May 3rd is worth reading
> > > > > too.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?next=2&ColumnsName=mch
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > More objective reporting from Mona. Has she ever criticized Israel?
> > >
> > > Well I have been reading her articles for about 2 years now. She does not • side
> > > with either conservatives or liberals all the time.
> >
> > That is *not* what I asked
>
> The statement was a validation of Mona Charen not mindlessly accepting
> Government Propaganda from either side of the issue.
I see. I suppose my problem is that I don't view this as a "conservatives" v
"liberals" issue.
> >
> > > Her opinions (and I do
> > > understand it is an opinion) are formed with the facts at hand.
> >
> > Not "the facts", just the "facts at hand"? What are her information sources?
> > AIPAC?
>
> Primary source research, not the "News."
Hmm. That sounds a little vague. Her reporting appears very selective to me.
> >
> > > The simple
> > > fact is that everyone who has heavily researched the facts first hand and not
> > > the propaganda from both sides has come to the same conclusion. Certainly
> > > Israelies are not the inocent victims they portray themselves to be. But • they
> > > are much closer to that end rather than the evil oppressors Palestinians
> > > portray them to be.
> >
> > They may not be the "evil oppressors Palestinians portray them to be", but
> > they are still evil oppressors. Just take a look at the human rights reports
> > from the occupied territories.
> >
> > “[There are] daily acts of discrimination, inequality, humiliation, and the
> > powerlessness of occupation. This has been intensified by the conflict,
> > intensified by the excessive use of force” - UN Human Rights Commissioner
> > Mary Robinson
> > from:
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1043000/1043537.stm
> >
> > Is she lying?
>
> 18 months of suicide bombings will have that effect. I guess Israel never
> should have withdrew in 1997.
Perhaps they should never have invaded in '67?
*If* it meant a lasting piece, do you think Israel should hand back the West
Bank, or do you think they should get to keep what god gave them ~3000 years
ago?
>
> > > >
> > > > Even if every word were true, and the reality were worse, it does not
> > > > justify what the Israeli’s are doing. As my granny used to say: two wrongs
> > > > do not make a right.
> > >
> > > As Mona Charen stated;
> > > "Why do those who accuse Israel of "excessive" force against the Palestinians
> > > not consider that the easiest course for Israel, if she truly had no
> > > compunctions about causing civilian casualties, would have been to attack • Jenin
> > > and other terror nests from the skies (as we did in Afghanistan),
> >
> > Indeed, the Palestinians should be grateful they have not been "nuked".
>
> Uh, NO.
> >
> > > instead of
> > > going house-to-house, risking (and losing) the lives of her soldiers?"
> >
> > In Jenin, they forced Palestinians into the houses first... very brave of • them:
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937599.stm
> >
> > “Israeli soldiers have forced Palestinians at gunpoint to open suspicious
> > packages, knock on suspects' doors and search the houses of Palestinians
> > wanted by Israel”
>
> Oh yes, PLO controled news reported by the BBC is completely trustworthy.
Not quite. It was a BBC report of a HRW study:
http://www.hrw.org/
It looks like the IDF may stop the practice:
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/05/israel0509.htm
I wonder if those involved will be prosecuted?
> >
> > > >
> > > > I would have had a great deal more respect for Israeli human rights and
> > > > openness if they had allowed the UN into Jenin. They did not. What is more,
> > > > Sharon saw fit to thank the USA for helping him avoid exposure:
> > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4409055,00.html
> > > >
> > > > What does he have to hide?
> >
> > No answer? Has the cat got your tongue?
> >
> > Why does he get so much support from the US? Perhaps this is why:
> > http://www.wrmea.com/html/aipac.htm
>
> Oh wow, the US and Israel both have their hands dirty too. Gee there is a
> shock. At least living in free societies we can both see that. Arabs
> (including Palestinians) might change their tune if they knew their governments
> were using them as pawns. (as any good Dictatorship would.)
How free is a society if its leaders are in the pocket of an overseas
pressure group? I would worry if it were my country. AIPAC supports
candidates from your main parties, and even those from groups like the LP.
> > > >
> > > > > (if only ignoring the problem would make it go away)
> > > >
> > > > The world has been ignoring the problem since '67... and before. The problem
> > > > is Israel and its apologists. If they had chosen to abide by UN resolutions,
> > > > this would largely be history. The Intifada is a result of
> > > > desperation/oppression, not a unilateral act of war.
> > >
> > > I assume you did not read the May 3rd article.
> > > http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?next=1&ColumnsName=mch
> > >
> > > The Arab countries and the PLO are the ones who have been keeping the
> > > Palestinians in a state of desperation/oppression
> >
> > Even if that is true, and the reality were worse, Israel's actions force
> > them into the hands of Arafat… and worse. Look at how Hamas has gained
> > strength since Sharon came to power. Do you really think that is a
> > coincidence?
>
> Of course not. If all your information was based on State Controlled media you
> unquestionably trusted, how would that affect your beliefs.
That is not the situation though is it? In the occupied territories, the
media may not be "free" but the news is all around them - tanks,
checkpoints, air raids etc.
> They keep the
> masses discontent and have a scapegoat to blame it on. That strengthens their
> power base and gives them lots of mindless volunteers. Heck, if I was naive
> enough to believe innocent women and children were evil and that by blowing
> them up I would go to heaven, I just might sign up.
What do you think Sharon thinks about "innocent women and children". Do you
think he feels he has a place in heaven? Or does he know what he is doing
(and has done) is wrong? What about the Israeli electorate? They voted for
him knowing his history.
>
> > Think about it for one second!
>
> Indeed. Israel is certainly going about it all wrong but so is the UN. What
> the UN should do, is order an international force to liberate all the Arab
> civilians from dictatorships and let them think for themselves for once in
> their lives.
Like the US did in Venezuela? How could the UN get a mandate to do such a
thing, when its own members are corrupt? That said, there are countries that
are willing to help protect democracy – take a look at what has happened in
Sierra Leon.
> Of course China being a dictatorship might have a problem with
> that. Maybe my personal problem with the whole thing is I believe everyone
> should have the right to live under the ideals of the United States
> Constitution. Something the US Government does not even seem to believe
> anymore.
The Constitution gave you the Government you (the US electorate) did *not*
vote for... ;)
Scott A
>
> -Mike Petrucelli
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Peace in the Mid-East?
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| (...) Yes, I know it's a big IF! Scott A =+= Have you inspected Arthur’s Seat yet? (URL) reasonable man adapts himself to suit his environment. An unreasonable man persists in attempting to adapt his environment to suit himself. Therefore, all (...) (23 years ago, 13-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Peace in the Mid-East?
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| [snip] (...) Ah, I see. [snip] (...) Well if 5 Arab armies had not attacked them they probably would not have. (...) *If* it meant peace then yes I do think Israel would hand back the West Bank. That was why Barak was elected and offered peace to (...) (23 years ago, 14-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Peace in the Mid-East?
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| (...) side (...) The statement was a validation of Mona Charen not mindlessly accepting Government Propaganda from either side of the issue. (...) Primary source research, not the "News." (...) they (...) 18 months of suicide bombings will have that (...) (23 years ago, 11-May-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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