Debate : 12999


Off-Topic / Debate / 12999

Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

This seems to have sort of slipped away from discussion... (URL) wonder if Scott A. or Daniel J. might be able to debunk this for me? (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) Well, I'm not sure where you're going with this, Larry. The Israelis have done the exact same things to foreign journalists, you know that. Even America has censored journalists, such as those covering American sponsored massacres in Central (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Nope, I didn't have anything else to direct at you. You answered my question honestly, it's not debunkable. I appreciate that. Thanks Dan. (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Dan Boger

(...) Can you site examples when Israel or the US censored a report of a civilian gathering? not talking about details about a military operation, since that actually does make sense. But civilian? Also, can you site a single example of anyone (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) Because it's shocking to see such behavior, but I'm not surprised that the Palestinians would feel that way after everything they've endured. I think anyone wishing to pass judgement on another should first consider walking in their shoes. How (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Dan Boger

(...) ok, so you are denying that the complete footage, as seen on CNN is real, actual palestinians celebrating the WTC attack... which is exactly what you said no one is doing. Drop that though, what basis do you have to claim that any part of it (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) I don't know what you're asking here? Do I deny there were celebrations? Of course not, that's pretty obvious. And I don't think the Arabs are denying the celebrations either, just specific portions of the initial footage shown in America. The (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) In my delight that you admitted that the PA censors without needing to be prodded as much as usual, I forgot to follow up on the rest of the article... you focused on the censorship of the press part and admitted that it is true, although you (...) (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) <snipped> As far as I'm concerned, Larry, the Israeli government is one big terrorist organization. It began that way and remains that way. It seems that you're making this a personal issue between us so take it to e-mail. Dan (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Tom Stangl

Dan, PERSONALLY, I think this is a personal issue between you and the world. You are constantly spouting that Israel and the US are the root of all evil, everything is obviously their (and our) fault, and if they'd just go away, the world would be a (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Richard Marchetti

(...) Actually, I don't agree with either your factual assertions or that Israel or the U.S. are to blame for all the miseries of the world (more or less Dan's viewpoint). Personally, I think there's enough blame to go around to all participants! (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) That is NOT my viewpoint! Dan (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Tom Stangl

Dan, Then you need to think about your one-sided responses. Just go back and check your responses in this group - the vast majority are "X is Israel/US's fault" or "X is caused by Israel/US" or "X is worsened by Israel/US". If we take you at your (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

I'm pointing out the dirty facts behind the curtain the popular American media has created regarding Palestine and Israel. If that is being one-sided, then the only "side" I'm on is that of truth and justice. I make no bones about shedding light on (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) FWIW Dan, I've really appreciated the information that you and others have presented here from the "other" side of this issue. Even if I do kind of agree (from across subjects, not just the issue of Israel) that you slam the US quite often. (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: <snip> (...) <snip> I'm sorry, I read it several times and still could not believe what I'm reading (perhaps it's my english). Are you saying that you think Israel is a terrorist organization? (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) reading (...) I'm specifically saying that's what Dan said (and I think that's partly what riled folks). See: (URL) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

(...) terrorist (...) Oh, I see that now. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, I've come to expect such remarks from Dan. It just caught me off guard in your post. Up to that point your post seemed levelheaded. I could agree to many points (and (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) Okay, tell me how the Palestinians left their homes and villages after 1948? Willingly? Perhaps you should learn more about how Israel REALLY came to be. And you should recognize the long list of terrorists (by America's very own definition) (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

(...) I guess you mean during the 1948 war, 1) This isn't different than what is happening now in Afghanistan. People left their homes in fear of the coming war. 1.25 million Israeli Arabs now living in Israel are the ones who didn't run. 2) You are (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Richard Marchetti

David: You seem to be pretty selective about what you are willing to comment on. For some information that flies in the face of your assertions about modern day Israel, please see: (URL) don't know the reputation of The Times, but the article (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Dan Boger

(...) 1) The guy says "Moderate physical pressure" the reporter writes "torture". 2) The fight against terrorism isn't "against your own people". 3) If there's good intelligence that there's a suicide bomber heading twards Tel-Aviv, and they catch (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello Dan, (...) What if they just THINK he has info about it? If you really think this idea to the very end, I think you will prefer to live in a constitutional state. (...) ^^^^^^ "could potentially" probably would be more realistic ... Greetings (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Richard Marchetti

(...) I am pretty sure I have never mentioned this in the past. So I have no idea what you are talking about. I think you are mistaking me for someone else. And I am really not sure about the previous acquittal -- but I am willing to read a cite if (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

(...) Of course. I was answering certain accusations and not listing all that I see wrong in modern day Israel. surely, Mr. Gilon is not who Daniel Jasim referred to as a "terrorist (by America's very own definition)". I'm sure no one in the (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Richard Marchetti

David: Okay, now we are caught up in nit-picking over the incidents of both sides and what constitutes protecting citizens when some of them are de facto PLO members who oppose and resent Israeli rule. We might as well stop here... No one is (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) How long must a group of people have stopped supporting or engaging in terrorism for us to acknowledge that they are not (any longer) a terrorist organization? I'm not at all targetting Israel with this. Factions of the IRA evolved away from (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello Chris, (...) If you need the fact that they are terrorists to validate your argument, you may decide to change NEVER instead of slowly ... Greetings Horst (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) No, it's been an ongoing thing. And with lot's of variety: assassinations, air raids, rocket attacks, helicopter attacks, cluster bombs, phosphorous bombs, napalm, etc. (...) 100% pure BS and what a way to twist information! Since you admitted (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes: <foam snipped> Suppose I stipulate for the purposes of discussion that everything you allege about Israel is true? WILL you answer my questions publicly or not? Email doesn't count unless I have your (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

Here are my answers to Larry's questions regarding the Palestinian Authority. This was previously in an e-mail to him but he was insistant that I respond publicly: (...) I say NO for the simple fact that they regularly condemn terrorist attacks on (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello Dan, (...) I think you should calm down a bit. I have already said that I don't see the benefit of finding out who is responsible for more terror. The truth is as simple as this: ALL of that has to stop. Period. Nothing else will ever bring (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

(...) mark. (...) saying (...) Zulu (...) 53 (...) lying (...) guess (...) militant (...) Oh my God. That's just scary. I'm glad it's not a face to face debate, I have the distinct feeling that by now you would simply hit me. To the rational people (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) Just why would I hit you? What, I'm some sort of bully beating on people? You don't know me so cut the crap. (...) You asked before what the connection was, it's Heigel (sp). The Zionists are from the same fundamental tree as the Nazis-- (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Tom Stangl

(...) Judging by your previous comments in this group, you're a hothead that would resort to physical violence. Far past comments, and very recent ones. I think David is just reading your comments for what they are, veiled threats (not so veiled in (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) Look who's talking, especially after some of your comments in the debate about handguns. *For those of you that don't know, Tom is referring to one incident when he insisted that he'd treat me rudely in person and my response was "come show (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) resort (...) Disagree. You did basically threaten him because he was rude. (...) (not (...) Agree. Nothing you have said could be taken as even remotely threatening this time around. On the other hand, If I were an Israeli (who believed the (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

(...) would (...) threats (...) this (...) maybe (...) I'm a very nonviolent person. The only time I can imagine resorting to the use of force is when I'm physically threatened and I can't run away. Up until now I've always managed to avoid the (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) Okay, if I made threats, then what did I threaten to do to Tom? He was the one who threatened to treat me rudely in person. I thought it was clear that I was calling the barking dog off his porch. And I also thought I made it clear I had no (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Tom Stangl

(...) Did I ever threaten any specific person in here with direct violence? No, but I got threatened by cowards. (...) Showing your stripes again - hiding behind insults. I am far from a coward. If something really matters to me, I'll defend (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) Who threatened you? Maybe I missed it. (...) I'm not hiding behind anything, I'm here whenever you want to follow through on YOUR OWN statements. Stick to the facts: You got rude, I drew a line, you insisted otherwise, I said prove it, you (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello Dan, (...) Having the same roots doesn't make things identical. (...) Not for long, though ... (...) That they are not exactly the government of Israel? Greetings Horst (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) Well it certainly is not Palestine: (URL) A (...) (23 years ago, 25-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Jordan as the Palestinian homeland? Yes or no, please (23 years ago, 27-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) I fear I have allowed myself to be misunderstood. I was a little bemused by that news story – it shows a degree of clumsiness on both sides. However, as Mr Straw was visiting the Middle East to speak Iran, I am sure it was not detrimental to (...) (23 years ago, 28-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I don't think you have to *read* it to decide if you agree with the general idea or not, that the UN had the power to decide that Palestine was to be partitioned, and designated each partition as a homeland for someone. I'm not sure I agree (...) (23 years ago, 28-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) What is your point? Are you saying the none of the land Israel is on legally belongs to them. I agree that some of it does not, but I am pretty sure some of it does. Scott A (23 years ago, 28-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) What is MY point? My point is that you have no point and you haven't answered the question. (...) So you agree Israel has a right to exist, then? I suspect (but can't confirm since Dan hasn't said) Dan does not feel that way at all. Myself I (...) (23 years ago, 28-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) You did not pose a question(?). What is your point? (...) But what about international law? Why not apply the same rule to settlers in the USA? How fair was the way some them got their land? Scott A (23 years ago, 28-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Really? (...) You didn't answer that question. (...) Still waiting on an answer to that. (...) What about it? (...) We should. (...) It wasn't and it should be undone. Which I have said before. ++Lar (23 years ago, 28-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) Oh yes I did. (in a pantomime tone) (...) Indeed, and I have said before it would be a great issue for the LP to work on: (URL) A (...) (23 years ago, 29-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) I agree that legally Israel does exist and that it is here to stay. I wish they would respect human rights a little more, stop murdering people, respect UN resolutions, hand back what is does not belong top them, get rid of their nuclear (...) (23 years ago, 29-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I'm an idealist too. Oh, that wasn't what you were asking... I agree with all of that except for the part about the nukes. I know it's accepted wisdom that Israel has some. If they do I think they ought to keep them. At least until we invent a (...) (23 years ago, 29-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) I live in the greatest country in the world. If I moved to a not so good one (say England). Scotland would still be my home. (...) I don't really see myself in those terms. Read the news and you will see that Israel are pretty good at (...) (23 years ago, 29-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Dan, why don't you agree with their attacking the Israelis? If I were certain that your side of their behavior were the most accurate rendition of what's going on, I would have full support for their violence. When I go down your list of (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) Because violence begets violence, hates begets hate. The only way to overcome it and live in peace is to not play the game. But how can the Palestinians overcome a bunch of racist, exclusionist thugs like the Zionists especially when they are (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

(...) certain (...) my (...) democracy? (...) in (...) of (...) That's ridiculous. (...) - David (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) A lot. Some have passed, and some, as you point out, have been vetoed. I would ask you though, if you think UN resolutions are something to pick and choose from, or whether one has to accept them all. If the latter, does that mean you (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Dave Low

(...) A few references Israel's changing border: (URL) Vetoes of UN Resolutions Critical of Israel (URL) general assembly resolutions here: (URL) security council resolutions here: (URL) another perspective -- take it or leave it (URL) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) him for what he's done well. The interactive historical atlas that this is a part of is pretty amazing... the TOC is here: (URL) is a LOT more there than just the map of Israel that David refers to. I liked some of the animated GIFs best. For (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello David, (...) Why is it so important who does MORE of it? You can probably argue (and kill more people) about that forever ... Greetings Horst (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

(...) I can only agree. I think the main reason that this is happening is that both sides have so little trust in one another that they feel the only way to get something done is through violence. To explain why they resorted to violence they have (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello Dan, (...) It came to be by a UN resolution. I am not saying this was a just resolution, but was the only solution for this problem really to put Israel to war the day after it was founded? Probably not ... and they lost the war, so it wasn't (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Truly, I don't know. There are issues with satisfactorily defining the notion of terrorism and there is the fact that I don't know what all goes on between Isreal and Palestine. From American Heritage: (...) The insertion of "unlawful" into (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —David Arnon

(...) that (...) societies (...) actually (...) If what you are saying here is that all the countries [1] in the world are terrorist organizations then I think you should find a new definition. If you think that Israel somehow stands out of the rest (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Well, that's what I meant by it seems a little funny. (...) I must grapple with the wrongs perpetrated by my own nation. My interest in Israel as a potential "terrorist organization" comes mainly from the fact that my nation has strong ties (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello Chris, (...) Thanks :-) (...) No. And is Terrorism only about "innocent civilians"? No. And now it gets a bit harder for some of the guys who thought they were out ... ;-> (...) I'd say no (as above), no (missing the "unlawful" attribute; that (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) That's the big lie, my friend. Dan (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello David, (...) One, that makes us (you, me, the US, Israel, ... pick whoever you like best) the good guys? Good idea, that's what we usually do in such cases ... we create a reality distortion field. BTW, I don't see this definition makes ALL (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello Chris, (...) I like this question, and I'll try and answer it for Germany, where I live. We observe international law. We do not use military violence to change the world, except in cases sanctioned by UN. That seems pretty solid to me, in (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) 'terrorist (...) This seems to assume that the UN is perfect. What if the UN chooses to use force against a government's people or property to make the government tow the line? Isn't that terrorism? Chris (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) Democracy. Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Dan Boger

(...) Uh, no. At least some of us believe (or know, think, devine) that Israel is not a terrorist organization... I concure (sp) that Israel is not perfect, and has sometimes done things that were wrong. But it's a long long strech from saying that (...) (23 years ago, 23-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Daniel Jassim

(...) That's just your personal characterization of how you THINK I feel about stuff, and not really accurate at all. I never said or thought what you just wrote, that's too baseless and generic and I don't think that way. I don't appreciate being (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I want to apologise for "lumping you in with that chump Scott Arthur"(1) when it comes to debating, that wasn't my intent by naming the two of you at the start of the thread. It's just that you two are the "usual suspects" when it comes to (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Whether it is or not(1) does not answer the questions I posed. As I see it there are two possibilities - The PA is not a terrorist organisation and you choose not to defend it - The PA is a terrorist organization and you choose not to admit it (...) (23 years ago, 22-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

"Daniel Jassim" <danieljassim@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:GK1t0t.6G7@lugnet.com... (...) terrorist (...) I have to agree with this analogy. Who sponsors this terrorism? Scott A (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Horst Lehner

Hello, in addition to what Daniel Jassim already wrote, this article made me wonder whether Arafat is really leading these tactical maneuvers, or whether he is merely losing control ... Greetings Horst (23 years ago, 21-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Debunk this? —Scott Arthur

(...) Why expect me to "debunk" this? I do not offer blind support to the Palestinians - although you do appear to blindly oppose them. I am not an apologist for Palestinians or the Israelis. You should not forget that the Israelis have sought to (...) (23 years ago, 24-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)