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Speaking from a event coordination perspective, I think there's a number of issues we need to decide on before posting rules: a) Mechanical Interface for "Your Turn". I don't think it can be as crude as Chris suggests. I'm thinking it should be (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Just curious (since I wasn't at the din din), was IR discussed/dropped? What was Chris' suggestion? Iain (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) IR was, but there were a few issues: a) Fluorescents causing trouble at Lillian. b) Firmware/language differences. c) Reliability of IR d) Complexity of setting up tolerant protocol between two RCXes for IR. e) You'll need some sort of tunnel (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) This works well for the human interface. What about asking that the RCX sends a standard message that is available on the remote control? That takes away one mechanical issue and leaves all sensors and motor ports avaailable. (...) Oh, I was (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Ahh, yes, the glorious art of handshaking. I want to point out that it'd be pretty easy to zap someone you didn't like by sending them some voltage with a hard-wired output-to-input method. :) But I like that one the most, I think. It forces (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I see now. See my post on mechanical placement of bots. We can probably come up with a standard pushbutton that involves the gantry. Ralph (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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In lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto, Ralph Hempel wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) That was the first thing I thought of--if you design your 'bot on a gantry system, your hopper/dropper would have a home position to the "right" facing the gameboard. In this (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Excellent ideas guys. This is gonna be slick! (...) :) I just had another thought - when we did Project X, we had scoring that included time, as well as accuracy being factors in determining who won. Does anyone think that adding the time (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) See the post about IR. Mechanical works well so kids can play the robots. That could very well be a qualifying-have someone play a full game with the unit without failure. (...) Sounds right to me--it's not a big deal to buy a game board. God (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I have some questions (because I missed dinner) Assuming this game has been "solved", and it is possible for one to alway win, it seems like more than one game must be played, between "Competitors" These games may take some time, so it may be (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Steve gets free RCXes from all of his sumo contests, don't worry about that :) (...) I think all it would do is blow out the fuse somewhere in the CO. Would it even damage the line card, Mario? I was using a 1200 when 14.4's were the rage. It (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) :) On one plane it's easy, but the other is a little bit more tricky, I supose (since the chips are thin). (...) Huh? Why does the robot have to grab onto the board? If you want to do that, just say, you can grab onto the left side of the (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I think we decided there's a minimum move time-apparently the more time you have, the more you can calculate out which move to make. (...) There was a request at the table to do a more software oriented game for a change. That's not say (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I don't like the idea of having to give up a motor port. I only have 1 RCX. Even one sensor port may be a bit much.... That being said, the location of the RCX is independent of the bot operation, so maybe it could be in a standard place on (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Sure. That does make sense. Maybe two at a time, four at a time. (...) Well, you can always accept pokes from the left side, and give pokes from the right side. (...) Yeah, but should be mechanically isolated? Iain says it may be physically (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) You can't grab the board. The base the board is attached to has some techinc beams along the bottom that you can attach your bot/gantry to for indexing purposes using Technic pins or axles... That way, you can guarantee no obstructions due to (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) But as Iain says, the tolerance on the width axis is much higher. Clamping the board allows you to control the tolerance. The further away you are from the base (ie, the top, where accuracy counts) the more it'll sway/bend etc. We should have (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) If IR messages are not used, I think you'll have to use one motor port to signal you are done, one way or another. (...) I know BrickOS can also support standard messages. (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I'm going to get myself into trouble. LEGO has got to assume that someone's going to put a wire from 9V onto a sensor port and send voltage in there, so I'm sure it's protected so it doesn't do any harm. I think other people have pointed that (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) This is my problem with this game as discussed so far. There is a minimum mechanical requirement to participate, but no advantage to going beyond this. If your robot can drop the chips into the slots, and read the board you're set. It's all (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Nice explanation Derek! It would be really good if the action of toggling the timer could be used to signal the other bot to begin his move. They don;t need to be the same electrical point, but if we're closing a switch for the control lab, (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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Quoting Derek Raycraft <djr@rogers.com>: (...) I agree that a timer increases incentive to build better robots - and it would also speed up the game. I may not be happy with the idea, but I agree. :) Jennifer ps: sorry guys, I know this is your (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Well, technically I think this is a mechanically more difficult game than Project X (which I did with 1 RCX). the XY gantry system for Project X comes into play for the XY gantry for Project 4, but vertical movement of a gantry system is (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) It should be possible to do this with just an RCX. Each robot has 1 input & 1 output. The referee RCX just watches for when one is done, and it signals the other to start, at the same time, keeping time for each. And without the ref, the (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Well if we make the interface modular enough, we could have a human module and a robot module that plugs into the timer block. The human module could provide a button a person could press to say they have finished their turn. If two people (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Two human modules. Cute :) That's what I figured- a human module is a giant "slapper" wired to a touch switch. I prefer not to use a ControlLab for the arbiter. I agree with Steve-an RCX, or better yet, a Scout. (Two inputs, two outputs, and (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I choose the control lab as the ref because it's not a legal part to use in the contest, which means no-one looses the use of an RCX in for this game. (Well it's legal, but the computer at the other end isn't) You also have an nice large (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I don't see hwy this has to be so complicated. Why not just hook up your homing sensor to the other guys RCX? That way when you park your robot after moving, the other guy knows its his turn. For a human interface, the robot could beep when (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Steve, I wish you would stop this nonsense. Can't you understand that these RTLers bought a bunch of old Control Lab stuff (without asking if I wanted one :-) and now they are struggling to find ways to use up more of their spare time writing (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Except running more than one game in parallel is awkward.... Oh, I forgot, you guys bought a lot of them without asking me if I wanted one :-) Ralph (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) <snip> (...) I like this the best--touch sensor for when your 'bot is in the 'home' postition--i.e. 'off the board'. Your 'bot will probably use it, and you can run a wire to the other 'bot. Done and done. The part I'd think would be fun if a (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) I agree 100% I really think we should implement something other than win/lose scoring here. There should be a bonus for speed. I get the feeling that eventually people will get their programs working so well that they are nearly unbeatable. (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) What if I use the home button in between scanning the rows? Maybe there should be TWO home buttons. One to home the XY gantry (XZ if you're not comfortable rotating in 3 space) and another home button to indicate that you are ready to play. (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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This game is too easy. If we wanted to make it hard, we would play Mastermind. Hmmm, nevermind - it's been done already.... (URL) Ralph (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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OK. 2 rules! 1. stop having all this exciting conversations when I cant get near a working computer. and B. whatever we finally decide. we should have a "mock" game to test the system. some time in and around x-mas. this will give us a chance to (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) HOLY CRAP. Yeah. I tried to figure out how the logic even works when you guys did the Project X robots. I don't stand a chance at this! (URL) wish I had a camera that had a short depth of feild like that. :) OMG I found the word Europa Park in (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) This is a good idea, but I wonder how many people would actually have a working prototype by then. We all like procrastinating... (...) I don't care if you don't use a homing sensor, that isn't really the point. If we are going to use a sensor (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I won't be able to make it in December, so I'll just mock you from here... Steve "Steve is way smarter than me." - Chris (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) because like someone else pointed out. you have now forced someone to only home once. what If I need to home at each line? (...) that's exactly what I meant. I'm not near an RCX can you try it? Chris (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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Silly is all this complicated and wasteful crap about motor and sensor ports. IR works very nicely and consistently. If we're worried about interference from other competitions we could place just about anything in the path of the IR and we'd be (...) (21 years ago, 15-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) no it does not! for the most part with a head to head robot. YES. but some place NOT in you basement, under not ideal conditions..... (...) and what happens IF/WHEN I send a "your turn" signal, and you miss it? then what? who's to say you (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Of course it does...I've never seen it fail, and I've used it many many times in all kinds of environments. (...) The exact same situation could apply to a direct link. In either case, I think there is something to be said for a judge / (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) then it ain't home on the x axis, there's the actual board and then there's beside the board to make way for the other 'bot. Why would you need to return to beside teh board for each scan, and if you do, then have a "beside the 'beside the (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) only home (...) to (...) do, (...) We're pidgenholing again... argh..... :( (What if my robot is made of PRIMO and powered by love?) Iain (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) as have I. and I HAVE seen it fail. why do you think I have to install error checking to make sure I GOT a message. (...) agreed (...) i'm saying use up one of your "spare" rcx or even something as lowly as a scout, and send it your IR, and it (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) ok, I tried it. this is what I found: 1. I need to do more tests. 2. if the receiving RCX is set as switch or light as RAW, then an wire connected to a second RCX that is off reads 100. as soon as you power up the RCX, the reading drops to (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) 'Cause you're not doing it right? I've never used any kind of protocol or error checking and I've used this in all of my multi RCX robots (and no comments about the last one...messaging was not the problem) (...) True, but, I read that the guy (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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Okay so I'm just an outsider wanna-be but here's my take on things (after reading the lot). The idea of an home-sensor sounds like the best one. If a "reset to home" is needed during play, just reset to the left instead of parking to the right thus (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Hi Tobbe Nice to see a fellow Technic head turn up here. What do you think of this idea. You build a small bridge with a rail track over the top of the game board to a standard. It has a row of 1 x 4 gear racks down either side and you robot (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Hellu! (...) And the same to you! (...) Hmmm... rtlToronto has these games to "show and tell" and thus learning new ways to build stuff. Or at least that's what they claim :) This way it would be pretty limited with all robots looking somewhat (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) That's a good point. Although I could counter it by saying that in the real world engineer's are always having to conform to standards that have already been layed down and fit things to other thing's that have already been built. (...) Again, (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Put the RCXs in "standard" locations and cover them with a box. (...) But what if we only scan for new pieces? Our bot should be smart enough to know what the board looked like on the last move, so it should be trivial to find the ONE piece (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) That's true enough, but, my question still stands...how long per move, and does anyone with any experience know what the average number of moves per game is. Bruce (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I can't believe it, but I asked my wife where the Connect4 game is, and she donated the damned thing to Goodwill just last week!!!! I've played it a lot with the kids, and the standard board is (I think) 6x7 = 42 squares. From experience, we (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Contrary to what Calum may lead you to believe, I am no expert in the field... but I'll toss my 2 cents in anyway: My bet is that the linecard etc. would survive just dandy. These things are designed to be connected to wires strung along (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Well, there still is the standard that connects the 'bots to the game board. (...) What I've read so far indicates that the game will take too long as-is... (...) Interesting. (...) Yeah, the microwalkers we're cute but just don't talk to me (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Not true. This assumes that the opponent (or even YOUR last move) was successful. What if the gantry gets misaligned and a piece drops to the floor? You should check for this. Unless of course a rule is created to make you automatically lose (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) And no one builds to that quality anymore. I'm almost certain on one side of the average CO, there's a wall of nothing but fuse panels for each line...I remember seeing it on a tour of a CO once. (...) Considering I'm still waiting for my WiFi (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) AC power cords. :-) Derek (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | RE: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Geez that reminds me. Kids being kids, they tended to fiddle with the slider at the bottom of the game board that emptied the playing field. It got so bad that we added a rule that if you accidentally moved the slider and emptied the game (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Sad isn't it. (...) I don't think there is a fuse on a linecard, DMS-100 that is. I'll have to dig up the commemorative 100,000th linecard (cast in stylish lucite) paperweight and confirm. Remember that thing? Best dumpster find I ever made. (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) Vison Command! If your going to use IR why not just send the column number as well? 'Dear opposing RCX. I dropped my chip down column number X, your turn.' Steve (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) If your going to do that, then why bother having the board at all. We could just point to RCXs at each other. Derek (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) [butting in] By my calculations there are 261,827 distinct states the board can be at by the 8th move (184,868 board combos for turn 8 itself). I don't have numbers for further states, cuz, well, it was taking too long for my program to (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Speaking of fitting stuff into 20 RCXs, is there a limit in this game for how many RCXs can be used? If not, doesn't that kill the idea that we can put the RCXs fact to face, to communicate with the opponent? Dang. I liked that idea better (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) I don't believe so! (...) You bring up a good point we haven't touched on yet. If we do opt for an IR "your turn" signal (which, from what I've been reading, is what we're steering away from now), we'll have to assign numbers to people to use (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) To give some reference for plausibility, a look-ahead will reveal (I think): Look-ahead | Max Possibilities ---...---+---...--- 1 | 7 2 | 49 3 | 238 4 | 1,120 5 | 4,263 6 | 16,422 7 | 54,859 8 | 184,868 9 | 821,283 So, you're entirely right. (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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Quoting David Eaton <deaton@intdata.com>: (...) Wouldn't you only have to look ahead one step at a time? The opponent only has 7 choices on any given turn. It's pretty much impossible to say like playing a computer in chess, figure out how the game (...) (21 years ago, 16-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) cant.... stop..... must.... not..... hit reply.... button...... (...) wow bruce, keep it up. I'll have enough sig files to last for years. but seriously, you know as well as I do that very few of us have the ability to build and code this. I (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) no THAT'S a neat idea for the mock game? cause really we can all build a project X robot. (except for those few people who have NOT built a project X robot) so why bother with the hardware. we could have a trial game of software or even some (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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| | Re: Connect Four game issues
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(...) You "Son-of-a-Gun" or something like that! (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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(...) Wow, and afterwards we can go to a Star Trek convention and debate the merits of the Galaxy versus Nebula class starships, then play RPGs where I'm a dragon and you're a really scantily dressed elf, and finally we can head over the Linux (...) (21 years ago, 17-Sep-03, to lugnet.org.ca.rtltoronto)
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