 | | | | | | |
| |
|
Dear all!
I'm really glad with most of the latest news we have heared from TLC. Bulk
order becomes better and better, (in Germany you can buy at S@H even without
credit card!), the "My Own Trains" and the new waggons are nice as models and
especially for delivering spares. The Sopwith Camel is one of the greatest sets
ever in my eyes and Harry Potter isn't as bad as many people think about
it, since it offers lots of play fun (for kids) and lots of nice detailed sets
for not too
much money. Only the Hogwarts Express is a very lame modell in my opinion.
But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all. There have
been some worth to read discussions (mainly Europeans against Americans) about
the Guarded Inn and at this point we have the same effects concerning the
trains. I think Jojo has said nearly all about what makes a set a legend and
why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
rare sets.
The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
I would buy such a set immediately (imagine how much new cool MOCs you could
make up with dark gray bricks!). But I see nothing good in a simple 100% copy
of 4558: grey windows are available at S@H anyway and nearly all people around
have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well designed
train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the next
train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than 4560.
If you ask me, TLC would have done a bigger favour to us AFOLs if they had
released a new set maybe somewhat similar to 4564, but with cool new colours
like dark gray, tan, brown etc. I want to see a set with big train wheels
(including the possibility to add connecting rods) and with dark gray (or red)
wheel blocks, with dark gray magnet couplings etc. THAT would have been worth a
"Woow!!"
If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on the
one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, 4551 is
a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
fantastic set!)
The new 1000x series just kills legends and is not helpful for me at
all, since I get just "boring" stuff I have right now.... (I'm both collector
and builder).
Kind Regards,
Ben
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all. There have
> been some worth to read discussions (mainly Europeans against Americans) about
> the Guarded Inn and at this point we have the same effects concerning the
> trains. I think Jojo has said nearly all about what makes a set a legend and
> why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
Just reread that thread and the takeaway I got is that most people here in
the US anyway don't have a lot of sympathy for what apparently was the
majority view on 1000steine...
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
> want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
> rare sets.
>
> The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
There have been slight changes! 10000 uses different parts molds (new style
minifig torsos, 2 clip saddle, etc.) and the parts count on 10001 is going
to be different by 2! This should make the truly "anorak"y collector quite
happy. Unfortunately the changes are small enough that we have already seen
what appears to be someone trying to pass off a 10000 as an original set.
> And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well designed
> train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the next
> train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than 4560.
Um, are you saying that the 5 new cars just introduced by LD aren't a vast
step forward? They're not as good as what you or I can design (of course,
we're not constrained the same way) but they're way better than 2126.
Sure, more new sets would be better but LD doesn't have that much power yet.
Give it time. LD is changing the way things are done at TLC and what may
seem like a glacial pace to me and Hopfrog and others is really rocket speed
compared to how things get done inside the rest of TLC. I hope it speeds up
more, of course, don't get me wrong.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all.
> > ...why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> > http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
>
> Just reread that thread and the takeaway I got is that most people here in
> the US anyway don't have a lot of sympathy for what apparently was the
> majority view on 1000steine...
Of course there are all opinions to be found at 1000steine, but the majority is
of the opinion, that the Lego® hunting is such a big part of the hobby and they
would not like to miss it. Buying something with your credit card gives you not
the same satisfaction as finding a rare part on a flea market and trading the
next one with some other AFOL. All tose FOTM stories which we all have had are
such an important part of our hobby: I wouldn't like to miss them.
> > The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> > changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new • printings.)
> > The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> > mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> > be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> > Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
>
> There have been slight changes!
You are right, and this is a thing I really appreciate, but as far as I read
it, lots of people are not too glad about these differences (May I call them
the "jealous people": those who would like to get the "like original" sets
cheap, which we idiots have bought at highest prices?).
> 10000 uses different parts molds (new style
> minifig torsos, 2 clip saddle, etc.) and the parts count on 10001 is going
> to be different by 2! This should make the truly "anorak"y collector quite
> happy.
I agree. And the building instruction is different also. Still I would like to
see some "real" changes and I do not see the harm for the "players".
> Unfortunately the changes are small enough that we have already seen
> what appears to be someone trying to pass off a 10000 as an original set.
:-((
> > And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> > Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well • designed
> > train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the • next
> > train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than • 4560.
>
> Um, are you saying that the 5 new cars just introduced by LD aren't a vast
> step forward?
No, I'm not talking about these S@H waggons, but I see black for the future of
TLC trains (the stuff you buy at your local toy store, at least here in
Germany). S@H is great and in general I'm really satisfied, how things
proceeded during the last month.
> Sure, more new sets would be better but LD doesn't have that much power yet.
> Give it time. LD is changing the way things are done at TLC and what may
> seem like a glacial pace to me and Hopfrog and others is really rocket speed
> compared to how things get done inside the rest of TLC. I hope it speeds up
> more, of course, don't get me wrong.
No, of course not. And I know, most readers of lugnet.trains will not agree
with my opinion. Despite of this I felt the need to give you my opinion on the
Lego® Legends.
Leg Godt!
Ben
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
I think it will also be true that for every AFOL who never got a Metroliner
before now, there will be a hundred kids who get one.
Lego Direct is a tiny organization within Lego that wants to prove that
trains sell. They don't get to spend a lot of money developing products.
After the current re-releases do well, then LD will be in a position to ask
Denmark for more. The Sopwith Camel already existed, LD just brought it to
market. If a great new train set already exists on a designer's shelf,
perhaps it will be the next Sopwith Camel. I think that is more probable
than Lego putting a great train set in the retail line.
-Erik
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Erik Olson writes:
> One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
> Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
> many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
> roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
Some people think that LUGNET is the center of the LEGO universe. I'd
compare us to a section of seats at a sporting event, with a couple of
hecklers making the most noise. There might be 500+ seats, but only two
people trying to get the most attention. Sure, we LUGNET AFOLs make a lot
of noise, but we're really a small part of the LEGO market!
>
> I think it will also be true that for every AFOL who never got a Metroliner
> before now, there will be a hundred kids who get one.
Speaking as a real 'train head', this *has* to be a good thing. :-)
JohnG, GMLTC
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, John Gerlach writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Erik Olson writes:
> > One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
> > Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
> > many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
> > roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
That proves that more sales are generated by the catalog than by people reading
lugnet. It *doesn't* say anything about the people making those purchases.
Who knows whether it's parents, kids or AFOLs placing the orders?
> Some people think that LUGNET is the center of the LEGO universe. I'd
> compare us to a section of seats at a sporting event, with a couple of
> hecklers making the most noise. There might be 500+ seats, but only two
> people trying to get the most attention. Sure, we LUGNET AFOLs make a lot
> of noise, but we're really a small part of the LEGO market!
Exactly. The stadium is everyone buying lego, the section is AFOLs, the two
people are LUGNET.
I've said it before: LUGNET represents a relatively small portion of the AFOL
market. *Serious* LEGO maniacs wouldn't waste time on the computer, when they
could be playing with their bricks.
> > I think it will also be true that for every AFOL who never got a Metroliner
> > before now, there will be a hundred kids who get one.
> Speaking as a real 'train head', this *has* to be a good thing. :-)
I totally agree with you there.
Steve
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Steve Bliss writes:
> In lugnet.trains, John Gerlach writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Erik Olson writes:
> > > One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
> > > Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
> > > many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
> > > roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
>
> That proves that more sales are generated by the catalog than by people reading
> lugnet. It *doesn't* say anything about the people making those purchases.
> Who knows whether it's parents, kids or AFOLs placing the orders?
Good point. Brad only talked about how it was kids "directing" their parents
to buy, shortly after the context of juniorized sets.
I don't have a problem adjusting to being in a minority, because we've been
coddled lately. LUGNET however has allowed the illusion that we really are
all that important and more.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Erik Olson wrote:
>
> In lugnet.trains, Steve Bliss writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, John Gerlach writes:
> > > In lugnet.trains, Erik Olson writes:
> > > > One thing Brad Justus said on Saturday was that LUGNET estimates of how many
> > > > Guarded Inns were being ordered were "way off" -- the point was that many,
> > > > many times more are being bought by parents of kids. Sales "went through the
> > > > roof" when the S@H catalog went out.
> >
> > That proves that more sales are generated by the catalog than by people reading
> > lugnet. It *doesn't* say anything about the people making those purchases.
> > Who knows whether it's parents, kids or AFOLs placing the orders?
>
> Good point. Brad only talked about how it was kids "directing" their parents
> to buy, shortly after the context of juniorized sets.
However Brad made it quite clear: "on 7 of 8 calls we listened to, you
can hear the kid in the background directing the parent". Those sales
are FOR kids, no matter whose money is being spent. While I question the
7 of 8 calls (Mike pointed out that he usually orders for his son after
bedtime, I also wonder about gift purchases etc. - but then perhaps it
is just evidence that kids are spending their OWN money [with their
parent's help]).
> I don't have a problem adjusting to being in a minority, because we've been
> coddled lately. LUGNET however has allowed the illusion that we really are
> all that important and more.
Brad made it clear that while we are a minor part of their market, we
ARE important to them. We represent a very dedicated fan base which will
promote the brand, we happily provide information (another one Brad
mentioned - they DID use the "parts survey" as an input to their
decision making and it sounded like he was somewhat dissapointed it had
fallen by the wayside).
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com (business only please)
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Frank Filz wrote:
> Erik Olson wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > I don't have a problem adjusting to being in a minority, because we've been
> > coddled lately. LUGNET however has allowed the illusion that we really are
> > all that important and more.
>
> Brad made it clear that while we are a minor part of their market, we
> ARE important to them. We represent a very dedicated fan base which will
> promote the brand, we happily provide information (another one Brad
> mentioned - they DID use the "parts survey" as an input to their
> decision making and it sounded like he was somewhat dissapointed it had
> fallen by the wayside).
I don't know about all of you, but there are at least 6 non-AFOL families
who regularly ask me for Lego advice (including help on buying out-of-production
sets). I have told them exactly what I think about Lego Racers, Juniorization,
Bionicle, and other issues commonly discussed on Lugnet. If I am typical, then
TLC marketing is probably underestimating our influence by a substantial factor.
/Eric McCarthy/
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Eric McCarthy wrote:
>
> Frank Filz wrote:
>
> > Erik Olson wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > I don't have a problem adjusting to being in a minority, because we've been
> > > coddled lately. LUGNET however has allowed the illusion that we really are
> > > all that important and more.
> >
> > Brad made it clear that while we are a minor part of their market, we
> > ARE important to them. We represent a very dedicated fan base which will
> > promote the brand, we happily provide information (another one Brad
> > mentioned - they DID use the "parts survey" as an input to their
> > decision making and it sounded like he was somewhat dissapointed it had
> > fallen by the wayside).
>
>
> I don't know about all of you, but there are at least 6 non-AFOL families
> who regularly ask me for Lego advice (including help on buying out-of-production
> sets). I have told them exactly what I think about Lego Racers, Juniorization,
> Bionicle, and other issues commonly discussed on Lugnet. If I am typical, then
> TLC marketing is probably underestimating our influence by a substantial factor.
I think they're underestimating it less than you think. Brad touched on
this type of impact. However, I think their feeling is their whole Mania
Club/S@H consituency fits this bill.
Brad also made it clear that while he completely understood that we
don't buy juniorization or racers (I bet you'd be surprised by the
number of AFOLs buying Bionicle), they are also not targetted at our
market segment. They are targetted at today's kids who have been
conditioned to more instant gratification and action oriented play. They
also hope and understand that if they expose a kid to some building
before the action oriented play, that perhaps some of those kids will
realize the building part is play also... Some of the new lines
(Throwbots, Bionicle, and Racers) are also targetting the kids
"collectible" market. Kids have always collected (in fact, people have
probably always collected - ever thought about what's REALLY behind a
zoo or library - and those are ancient concepts).
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com (business only please)
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> Of course there are all opinions to be found at 1000steine, but the majority
> is of the opinion, that the Lego® hunting is such a big part of the hobby and
> they would not like to miss it. Buying something with your credit card gives
> you not the same satisfaction as finding a rare part on a flea market and
> trading the next one with some other AFOL. All tose FOTM stories which we all
> have had are such an important part of our hobby: I wouldn't like to miss
> them.
I don't like flea markets, and I don't like used stuff if I can avoid it. I
have no sympathy with the view that the fun is in the "shopping" for the
elements or sets -- I hate shopping! My preference would be for TLC NOT to
rerelease sets but just certain elements -- but there is probably a profit
motive in just rereleasing the sets instead. So be it. I support the
rerelease of sets with desirable elements. I have no sympathy for the
collector's of lego who have paid premium prices for stuff -- I have done it
too, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happier by far to have ready access
to the elements I was seeking because they have rereleased the set
containing those elements!
[Man, I really need to finish that grading Lego thing so that you can all
see why collecting Lego at premium prices is REALLY stupid in many cases.
But that will have to wait for pictures!]
> You are right, and this is a thing I really appreciate, but as far as I read
> it, lots of people are not too glad about these differences (May I call them
> the "jealous people": those who would like to get the "like original" sets
> cheap, which we idiots have bought at highest prices?).
I don't care about the "like original" sets, just the "like original" parts!
There is a quality control issue where the walls are manufactured
differently and where the printing of the more modern elements is done in an
increasingly shoddy manner (the flag appears to have suffered of bad
printing for 10000). I have had printing troubles with sets beyond 10000,
and that is THE issue also!
TLC is not going to win any points with me if their quality control starts
heading any further south -- that makes Mega Bloks look increasingly better
to me (as it does all the time because of improvements on their side of this
equation!). Frankly, things need to improve and ASAP! Quality control has
really started to slip and I presume its not a good thing in anyone's view...
-- Hop-Frog
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all. There have
> > been some worth to read discussions (mainly Europeans against Americans) about
> > the Guarded Inn and at this point we have the same effects concerning the
> > trains. I think Jojo has said nearly all about what makes a set a legend and
> > why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> > http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
>
> Just reread that thread and the takeaway I got is that most people here in
> the US anyway don't have a lot of sympathy for what apparently was the
> majority view on 1000steine...
>
> > As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> > collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> > Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> > play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
> > want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
> > rare sets.
> >
> > The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> > changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> > The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> > mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> > be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> > Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
>
> There have been slight changes! 10000 uses different parts molds (new style
> minifig torsos, 2 clip saddle, etc.) and the parts count on 10001 is going
> to be different by 2! This should make the truly "anorak"y collector quite
> happy. Unfortunately the changes are small enough that we have already seen
> what appears to be someone trying to pass off a 10000 as an original set.
I agree. In fact, the smaller the difference the more joy the anoraks will
have. Other collecting fields suffer from re-runs, I do not see why Lego
should be any different. Perhaps the anoraks should start collecting lines
which may never be reproduced? :)
Scott A
>
> > And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> > Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well designed
> > train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the next
> > train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than 4560.
>
> Um, are you saying that the 5 new cars just introduced by LD aren't a vast
> step forward? They're not as good as what you or I can design (of course,
> we're not constrained the same way) but they're way better than 2126.
>
> Sure, more new sets would be better but LD doesn't have that much power yet.
> Give it time. LD is changing the way things are done at TLC and what may
> seem like a glacial pace to me and Hopfrog and others is really rocket speed
> compared to how things get done inside the rest of TLC. I hope it speeds up
> more, of course, don't get me wrong.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
"Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
>
> The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
What a good idea Ben.
I would support that.
A bit like the Retro Station being released in 2 colours, yellow and red. Why not do the Metro Liner in new colours too?
Like a yellow and white Eurostar version.
If they can produce the My Own Train in so many colours, why not apply this concept to other sets too?
What I do wish, is that seeing as they are going to the trouble of making these sets again, why cant they put some of
the bricks from those sets into bulk packs?
I dont want a metroliner, but I do want the roof bricks, and doors with stripes, so I can make more coaches.
I dont want a Guarded Inn, but I do want lots of red (and yellow, and white) tudor wall pieces.
They are making these things anyway - so put some in a packet for me please!
regards
lawrence
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Lawrence Wilkes writes:
>
> "Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
> >
> > The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> > changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> > The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> > mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> > be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> > Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
>
> What a good idea Ben.
> I would support that.
>
> A bit like the Retro Station being released in 2 colours, yellow and red. Why not do the Metro Liner in new colours too?
> Like a yellow and white Eurostar version.
>
> If they can produce the My Own Train in so many colours, why not apply this concept to other sets too?
>
> What I do wish, is that seeing as they are going to the trouble of making these sets again, why cant they put some of
> the bricks from those sets into bulk packs?
> I dont want a metroliner, but I do want the roof bricks, and doors with stripes, so I can make more coaches.
> I dont want a Guarded Inn, but I do want lots of red (and yellow, and white) tudor wall pieces.
> They are making these things anyway - so put some in a packet for me please!
>
> regards
> lawrence
I'd like to see that too, but I'm still getting a metro liner (not saying
that it may end up being used for parts...), and a few club cars (definatly
one for parts...), unless I decide otherwise...
Josh
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Lawrence Wilkes writes:
> What a good idea Ben.
> I would support that.
>
> A bit like the Retro Station being released in 2 colours, yellow and red.
> Why not do the Metro Liner in new colours too?
> Like a yellow and white Eurostar version.
>
> If they can produce the My Own Train in so many colours, why not apply this
> concept to other sets too?
Well, the MOT has clearly been designed around the concept of
interchangeable colours. The actual inventory of coloured parts is quite
simple - the train is mostly black, with coloured highlights. The majority
of parts are common to all the trains.
I would like to see more models like this - carriages and wagons with
similar interchangeable colours* - but I wouldn't have thought it
financially viable to apply it to older sets. Maybe they could re-mould an
entire production run in a different colour, but then would it really have
the same appeal? I doubt it.
As for the collectors' argument, both the box and instruction are new -
obviously, given the set number. There are differences in some of the
bricks that would indicate an original, but most of these could come from
any set of similar age. I think the main identity of a non-MISB set comes
from the instructions and (if available) the box. Without either of these,
it's just parts.
I think the real problem here is the use of e-bay. People would like to
completely rely on a seller's description, but you can't. The description
can't tell you everything, and you have to go on both your interpretation of
what's there and complete faith in the seller. The only way you could be
sure of what you're buying is to thoroughly inspect the goods before you
buy. Now, all of a sudden, you don't trust anyone offering an original
Guarded Inn. That's not the fault of the Lego Company.
Jason J Railton
*Though I suspect we wouldn't get train doors and windows in the chosen
colour, just the basic bricks. Hmm.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Lawrence Wilkes writes:
>
> "Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
> >
> > The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> > changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> > The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> > mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> > be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> > Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
>
> What a good idea Ben.
> I would support that.
>
> A bit like the Retro Station being released in 2 colours, yellow and red. Why not do the Metro Liner in new colours too?
> Like a yellow and white Eurostar version.
>
> If they can produce the My Own Train in so many colours, why not apply this concept to other sets too?
>
> What I do wish, is that seeing as they are going to the trouble of making these sets again, why cant they put some of
> the bricks from those sets into bulk packs?
> I dont want a metroliner, but I do want the roof bricks, and doors with stripes, so I can make more coaches.
> I dont want a Guarded Inn, but I do want lots of red (and yellow, and white) tudor wall pieces.
> They are making these things anyway - so put some in a packet for me please!
>
> regards
> lawrence
The new steam engine LEGO Trains sets can be bought in several colors but
since we are talking about rereleasing old LEGO sets, I think that people
should choose whatever colors that they want for their sets but in a
relistic frame of mind, that would cost the LEGO Company millions of dollars
to commit such an idea into action so we are left with what LEGO gives us so
if you want to pay more money for custom sets then get a second occupation
or go to a technical school.
I also believe I had made an arguement in the Space section of Lugnet about
rereleasing Blacktron and Space Police sets in the colors of either version,
such as receiving an Allied Avenger in the Blacktron I colors or a Renegade
in the Blacktron II colors or receiving set 6984 in Space Police II colors
or 6986 in Space Police I colors. I believe that since LEGO has already
made these parts that it would not be too difficult for such an action to
occur in the LEGO Company.
Jesse Long
P.S. LEGO Space needs to be reinstated because Rock Raiders, although a
good set, can not hold the LEGO Space universe forever and those transparent
LEGO Bricks in the Belville sets would be very good in LEGO Space sets.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Jesse Long wrote:
> The new steam engine LEGO Trains sets can be bought in several colors but
> since we are talking about rereleasing old LEGO sets, I think that people
> should choose whatever colors that they want for their sets but in a
> relistic frame of mind, that would cost the LEGO Company millions of dollars
> to commit such an idea into action so we are left with what LEGO gives us so
> if you want to pay more money for custom sets then get a second occupation
> or go to a technical school.
> I also believe I had made an arguement in the Space section of Lugnet about
> rereleasing Blacktron and Space Police sets in the colors of either version,
> such as receiving an Allied Avenger in the Blacktron I colors or a Renegade
> in the Blacktron II colors or receiving set 6984 in Space Police II colors
> or 6986 in Space Police I colors. I believe that since LEGO has already
> made these parts that it would not be too difficult for such an action to
> occur in the LEGO Company.
Something Brad talked about that I haven't seen mention of is that he
wants to head towards more customization of sets. I don't think My Own
Train will be the last color customizeable set. He also mentioned things
"Chinese family dinners" (pick your train engine from column A, two cars
from column B, a caboose from column C, and a track layout from column
D, and get the whole shebang for less than the total cost of each item
purchased individually). He also raised the mosaic as another example of
customized sets. This was in response to a question about the "build
your own set" rumor which floated around a while ago. He was pretty
clear that they wouldn't be offering any "build your own set" piece by
piece any time soon.
--
Frank Filz
-----------------------------
Work: mailto:ffilz@us.ibm.com (business only please)
Home: mailto:ffilz@mindspring.com
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Here we go again...
"Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also • a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things • and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the • "players"
> want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to • have
> rare sets.
Ugh.
Ben, I really do respect you and your building achievements, but I have to
disagree here.
In the end, I can't stand the fact that Lego is a "collector's item". The
fact of the matter is this - collectors drive up prices.
I am a builder, not a collector. While I do have a "Lego collection", I
don't purchase the product to see the price rise, or to sit models on a
glass shelf never to be touched again. I don't purchase the product just for
the sake of having something that few others have. I don't purchase the
product just for the satisfaction of owning it. I open all my sets. I build
models and I can't wait to see what my daughter does with Lego.
> The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new • printings.)
> The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors • would
> be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the • new
> Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
Yes, a new Metroliner would have been cool. But the old one is great too.
> ...and nearly all people around
> have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
> weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
Wrong. How do you know what sets I have?
I don't have a Metroliner. Or a Club Car. I will not pay $250 for a used
4558. I won't pay $350+ for a MISB 4558. And I would much rather purchase a
set from directly from S@H instead of on the secondary market.
> And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well • designed
> train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the • next
> train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than
4560.
And what evidence do you have of this? In my opinion, all signs point to the
fact that the 9v train line is alive and kicking. And the models are getting
better and better. (and as an aside, I would rather see smaller, similar
themed cars as separate sets rather than big $140 sets)
> If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on • the
> one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, • 4551 is
> a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
> fantastic set!)
Again, what evidence do you have of this assumption? I doubt there will be
another train-oriented Legends release for a long time. I'm sure Brad & Lego
Direct will examine all the lines and themes and ensure that they have equal
representation in Legends. There are a lot of sets and I'm sure the Space
fans are waiting for the Galaxy Explorer. In the meantime, I just don't
think Lego would re-release another full sized train set for a long, long
time.
> The new 1000x series just kills legends and is not helpful for me at
> all, since I get just "boring" stuff I have right now.... (I'm both • collector
> and builder).
The Legends are helpful for
a) Children getting into Lego for the first time.
b) Adults who put Lego away during the early 90's and missed out on a lot
fantastic sets.
c) Anyone who does not have the funds to purchase these sets on the
secondary market.
d) Anyone who wants awesome Lego sets.
Ben - I'm sorry to hear that LD has taken the wind out of your collectable
sails. But there is nothing stopping you from still enjoying your closet
full of mint-in-box 4558's and other sets.
I feel for Lego Direct. You can't make all the people happy all of the time.
Bryan
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Bryan Kinkel writes:
> Here we go again...
>
> "Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
> news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
> > As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also • a
> > collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> > Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things • and
> > play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the • "players"
> > want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to • have
> > rare sets.
>
> Ugh.
>
> Ben, I really do respect you and your building achievements, but I have to
> disagree here.
>
> In the end, I can't stand the fact that Lego is a "collector's item". The
> fact of the matter is this - collectors drive up prices.
Only the prices for the collectors item. I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no advantage
for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
> I am a builder, not a collector. While I do have a "Lego collection", I
> don't purchase the product to see the price rise, or to sit models on a
> glass shelf never to be touched again. I don't purchase the product just for
> the sake of having something that few others have. I don't purchase the
> product just for the satisfaction of owning it.
Sometime I do all the above mentioned: lots of other people do the same. What's
wrong about it?
> I open all my sets.
I do it in the same way, but I do not damn those who collect MISB sets. Why
should I do. They share my hobby (even if it is in a strongly different way,
but I do not damn Bionicle fans either.)
> I build
> models and I can't wait to see what my daughter does with Lego.
> > ...and nearly all people around
> > have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
> > weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
>
> Wrong. How do you know what sets I have?
> I don't have a Metroliner. Or a Club Car. I will not pay $250 for a used
> 4558. I won't pay $350+ for a MISB 4558. And I would much rather purchase a
> set from directly from S@H instead of on the secondary market.
But tell me why do you need a Metroliner, but are not willing to pay its
marketprice? Would you have had a problem with a evidently changed Metroliner
(for e.g. in dark gray)?
> > And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> > Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well • designed
> > train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the • next
> > train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than
> 4560.
>
> And what evidence do you have of this? In my opinion, all signs point to the
> fact that the 9v train line is alive and kicking. And the models are getting
> better and better.
Trains are alive, but I see them not become better and better. 3225 was a lame
set, 4560 also, 2126 was only a good spare part box. My own train and the
new waggons are quite ok (back on the level of the mid-nineties, but not better
than anything from the 80ies.)
> (and as an aside, I would rather see smaller, similar
> themed cars as separate sets rather than big $140 sets)
I agree.
>
> > If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on • the
> > one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, • 4551 is
> > a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
> > fantastic set!)
>
> Again, what evidence do you have of this assumption? I doubt there will be
> another train-oriented Legends release for a long time.
I was speaking of the assumption that the now released line of Legends became a
big success and make lots of profit. Surely TLC would follow then this way and
the best sets of the 9V line have been 4558, 4547, 4551 and 4536. the last two
one are "in danger" to be re-released.
> I'm sure Brad & Lego
> Direct will examine all the lines and themes and ensure that they have equal
> representation in Legends. There are a lot of sets and I'm sure the Space
> fans are waiting for the Galaxy Explorer.
Yes, I fear this will be one of the next dead legends. Would anybody have a
problem with a new Classic Space Logo (or a mirrored one)?
> In the meantime, I just don't
> think Lego would re-release another full sized train set for a long, long
> time.
That's also speculation, but I agree. If each month means just one or two new
legends, there have to be first some other themes: Technic (953 or 8880?),
Pirates (6385?), Space (497 or 6954?), Town, Western, ....
> The Legends are helpful for
> a) Children getting into Lego for the first time.
But they do not need a 100% copy and kids do not buy via S@H at www.lego.com
anyway.
> b) Adults who put Lego away during the early 90's and missed out on a lot
> fantastic sets. • Adult could affort the real sets or live with not 100% copies either
> c) Anyone who does not have the funds to purchase these sets on the
> secondary market. • I would prefer to own one "real" legend instead of 5 cheap copies of one...
> d) Anyone who wants awesome Lego sets.
The Sopwith Camel is a great set: better TLC invents new cool sets on a
quality level like that.
> Ben - I'm sorry to hear that LD has taken the wind out of your collectable
> sails.
It has not: thye will never re-release the 139 and others. ;-))
> But there is nothing stopping you from still enjoying your closet
> full of mint-in-box 4558's and other sets.
I have bought some MISB train sets during the past years (even over 30 years
old ones!): I have opened them all. I'm no MISB-freak, but I know about friends
who are: still - what's wrong about?
Even if people try to make profit by buying sealed stuff: Is making profit
suddenly wrong?
Kind Regards,
Ben
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
<SNIP>
> > In the end, I can't stand the fact that Lego is a "collector's item". The
> > fact of the matter is this - collectors drive up prices.
>
> Only the prices for the collectors item. I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no advantage
> for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
<SNIP>
Ben,
I see the point that you are getting at. I am not a lego "Collector" really.
I buy legos and build with Lego's. But I am a collector of other things
(Star Trek Action Figures, Die-Cast Soildiers) and I can understand where
you are comming from. There is nothing worse to a collector than the
watering down of the product line with re-issues. Most companies that are in
the collectable market understand this and try not to effect their secondary
market value. The problem is that a company cannot be in both camps. It
cannot make both collectors and players (people who "play" with Lego's)
happy. The two goals are counter productive. They have to pick one, and
since they are a childrens toy company they are trying to make the players
happy.
It's shows that LD is working on a tight budget. They are trying to make a
rather major change inside TLC, which is a very difficult task. It seems to
me that their goal (LD) is to prove that the AFOL are a market that is worth
going after. IMHO What they want to show is that if TLC spends money to
develope new products/parts/packaging that appeals to the AFOL with a supply
chain that differs from standard (basically in story shopping is the
standard) that they will make money. They don't want to break even, they
want to make a nice healthy profit to show that it is worth while.
The problem is, as of yet we (AFOL'S) are still an untested market. They do
not know the price points, the market depth, our actuall numbers, etc... So
basically what they are doing right now is testing the market. They know
what themes are important to AFOL's as well as the more popular sets, so
they are releasing a few "test" sets to see how the market does.
Now this might seem strange to you (or us as a group) because we know that
we will go nuts over the new sets if they are nicely designed. We know that
we would buy just as many Guarded Inn's if they came with tan instead of red
tudor peices. We know that we will go nuts over (and probably buy out) the
Metroliner and club car, even if they come in dark grey, or even the white
Eurostar version as opposed to the origional. They don't know that, or are
not willing to take the risk. They know that the Guarded Inn, in its
origional form, was one of the most looked for sets, so why would they make
a change for the test?
Basically they know that there are "Collectors" out there, but they chose to
overlook them right now because they pretty much can assume that the
re-issue of the origional guarded in will sell well (better than they
thought) and will make their point (make the test succesfull). Since the
company is trying to target the 'players' as opposed to the collectors, they
don't really care about the secondary market value of a set. Since they do
not directly make money of the secondary sale, it does not really bother
them that they have lowered the price of the set.
As to the assumption that they can sell newer sets at a higher price because
of the after market value of a older set. This is bunk, really. We all know
that there is a price point at which most people will chose not to buy a
set. Since an MISB metroliner sells on ebay for us$250 does that mean the
reissue should sell for US$225? I think not. For most people in their target
market (the "players") that would cross the price point and they would not
buy the set. It would still have the initial result of lowering the
origional set price at first because of the market flood.
Cheers,
David
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
"Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
news:GGKnuE.8rt@lugnet.com...
> But tell me why do you need a Metroliner, but are not willing to pay its
> marketprice?
Of course I don't "need" a 4558. But I desire one. But I won't pay secondary
prices.
I have a budget and have many priorities in life that are way ahead of Lego.
> Would you have had a problem with a evidently changed Metroliner
> (for e.g. in dark gray)?
No. But I doubt LD would go for the costs associated with "tweaking" an old
set.
> I was speaking of the assumption that the now released line of Legends • became a
> big success and make lots of profit. Surely TLC would follow then this way • and
> the best sets of the 9V line have been 4558, 4547, 4551 and 4536. the last • two
> one are "in danger" to be re-released.
What do you mean by "in danger?" Are you offering up 4551 and 4536 has
potential Legends? Bring them on! I will buy them.
> > Bryan:
> > I'm sure Brad & Lego
> > Direct will examine all the lines and themes and ensure that they have • equal
> > representation in Legends. There are a lot of sets and I'm sure the Space
> > fans are waiting for the Galaxy Explorer.
> Ben:
> Yes, I fear this will be one of the next dead legends. Would anybody have • a
> problem with a new Classic Space Logo (or a mirrored one)?
You are probably right on this one. But again, why would LD put forth the
cost and effort to tweak a set? I don't think that LD would sell more of a
tweaked set as opposed to a 100% re-issue. If anything, the cost associated
with minor changes to a set to satify the collectors would only hurt LD's
profit margins.
> > The Legends are helpful for
> > a) Children getting into Lego for the first time.
> But they do not need a 100% copy and kids do not buy via S@H at • www.lego.com
> anyway.
No, children don't need a 100% copy. But the 100% copy sold like hotcakes
from what I heard from the LD Chat at Brickfest. And I'm sure it was
purchased by parents who said "Gee, this looks like the Lego toys I
remember, not the stuff that fills 80% of the rest of the catalog."
> > b) Adults who put Lego away during the early 90's and missed out on a lot
> > fantastic sets.
> Adult could affort the real sets or live with not 100% copies either
From the posts in LUGNET, must adults *DO* have a budget and don't like
paying the high costs on the secondary market. I'm an adult, with a very
good, very comfortable paying job. But I don't have a never ending source of
funds.
And I think overall the adults on this side of the Atlantic do want 100%
copies.
> > c) Anyone who does not have the funds to purchase these sets on the
> > secondary market.
> I would prefer to own one "real" legend instead of 5 cheap copies of
one...
Again, your preference comes from a collector's point of view. As far as I'm
concerned, my "cheap copy" is the same thing. Except the torsos are
different. And the box. Big deal. But I got a bonus Indian horse and you
don't!. ;)
> I have bought some MISB train sets during the past years (even over 30 • years
> old ones!): I have opened them all. I'm no MISB-freak, but I know about • friends
> who are: still - what's wrong about?
Absolutely nothing.
> Even if people try to make profit by buying sealed stuff: Is making profit
> suddenly wrong?
I never said it was wrong. I'm all for the free market. However the term
"collectors market" leaves a really bad taste in my mouth. It brings up
images of surly looking guys behind dealer tables with an excess of comic
books, trading cards, sports memorabilia and Beanie Babies. I don't think
anyone wants to see this happen to Lego products.
I just don't see any downside to Lego re-releasing these beauties. AFOLs, at
least here on Lugnet, have been clamoring for reissued sets for at least as
long as I've been using Lugnet.
Bryan
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no advantage
> for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
No. Wrong.
TLC gets no benefit from things sold on the secondary market. It doesn't allow
them to "artificially" inflate prices on "new" items... how many posts do we
see on Lugnet complaining about the "price per piece" going up?
The only people that benefit from the price of a used (or out-of-production
[OOP] MISB) set being driven up by collectors is... collectors. Actually, not
even the collectors really benefit- the only people that benefit are those that
sit on multiple sealed copies of an old set, waiting for the price to go up so
they can sell them at a profit. This is commonly known as "speculating" and
the people that do it are known as "speculators".
TLC re-releasing the sets will benefit *everyone* except the speculators.
Those that just plain want a set (I, for example, would love to have a
Metroliner, and will definitely buy one- my first train set!) will buy it from
TLC. Before now, if I wanted a Metroliner, I would have to look for one from
someone else, taking a bigger chunk of my LEGO budget- and NONE of that money
would go to TLC! Getting some of that money flowing back to TLC is good for
not only TLC, but also for LEGO fans. In case you hadn't noticed, TLC has been
having financial trouble lately. I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans if
TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
Those that want to collect the old sets can still do so! There is no way that
you will mistake a LEGO Legends release for the old set. The box is totally
different. Fortunately for collectors, the price of a Metroliner (the original
one) will plummet! After all, a good chunk of the people that wanted a
Mertoliner will now simply buy the LEGO Legends release. Collectors will no
longer be competing with builders to get Metroliner original release sets.
Once a collector has a set, the going price for that set shouldn't matter to
him. After all, he's a collector, so giving up the set should be the last
thing he wants to do, for money or anything else!
As I said earlier, the only person hurt by this move is the Speculator. The
speculator will now have several copies of the set for which he paid more than
the current "going price". It is difficult for me to have any sympathy for the
speculator... as a shadow market, speculators drive up the price for both
collectors and builders by competing with them for available OOP sets. Then
they prfit from this price increase by selling back the set to the builders and
collectors. I do not like speculators... they sit on sets that could be making
a builder or a collector happy, for no other reason than financial gain. So,
actually, I quite like seeing them get burned by re-releases. They should find
a better way to make money.
So, would you care to show how the re-release of these sets hurts either
builders or collectors, or TLC? Because I just don't see it.
eric
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> > said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no • advantage
> > for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> > helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
>
> No. Wrong.
>
> TLC gets no benefit from things sold on the secondary market. It doesn't • allow
> them to "artificially" inflate prices on "new" items... how many posts do we
> see on Lugnet complaining about the "price per piece" going up?
>
> The only people that benefit from the price of a used (or out-of-production
> [OOP] MISB) set being driven up by collectors is... collectors. Actually, not
> even the collectors really benefit- the only people that benefit are those • that
> sit on multiple sealed copies of an old set, waiting for the price to go up so
> they can sell them at a profit. This is commonly known as "speculating" and
> the people that do it are known as "speculators".
And what about the "normal" people who go into their dark ages? Lots of people
know about the secondary market for used Lego toys and they do benefit by
selling their used stuff.
I think high prices for used stuff make it easier for Lego to sell their new
stuff. I can buy Duplo for a child and it's no problem to ged rid of it
a few years later. I think even those parly nuts prices for MISB sets make
people look at our hobby and make them sure about, it is a serious hobby, and
not a childish one.
> TLC re-releasing the sets will benefit *everyone* except the speculators.
>
> Those that just plain want a set (I, for example, would love to have a
> Metroliner, and will definitely buy one- my first train set!) will buy it from
> TLC. Before now, if I wanted a Metroliner, I would have to look for one from
> someone else, taking a bigger chunk of my LEGO budget- and NONE of that money
> would go to TLC! Getting some of that money flowing back to TLC is good for
> not only TLC, but also for LEGO fans. In case you hadn't noticed, TLC has • been
> having financial trouble lately. I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans if
> TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
junior and low quality crap like this.
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
You surely never have heard any complaining by me about too high prices of Lego
sets. I want high quality stuff (like TLC made it in the past). If you haven't
noticed: new bricks have higher tolerances (wich is bad) and are more weak. So
they get scratches and are warped even as new bricks sometimes. If Lego wants
to make profit with crap, they have to look for other consumers than me.
> As I said earlier, the only person hurt by this move is the Speculator. The
> speculator will now have several copies of the set for which he paid more than
> the current "going price". It is difficult for me to have any sympathy for • the
> speculator... as a shadow market, speculators drive up the price for both
> collectors and builders by competing with them for available OOP sets. Then
> they prfit from this price increase by selling back the set to the builders • and
> collectors. I do not like speculators... they sit on sets that could be • making
> a builder or a collector happy, for no other reason than financial gain.
What is bad about profit? If I can get my childhoods dream (the 7740) as MISB
today for a horrible price, I still might buy it. Even if some speculator wins
a few $$. What's so bad about it. You can't make a dream become true every day:
then it is no longer a dream. A MISB Metroliner is no longer a legend: it is
just one average Lego set among many others. Just a lost dream - a stolen
possibility....
> So, actually, I quite like seeing them get burned by re-releases.
And you are sure, you are not just jealous against people, who bought from the
speculator or against the speculator himnself? Nearly all "speculators" I know
are huge Lego fans themselves and they do this (sometimes risky) speculation to
finance their hobby and help other people to become their dreams fulfilled. In
the end the speculator uses his won money to buy even more new stuff from
TLC....
> They should • find
> a better way to make money.
Why? Who would profit then?
> So, would you care to show how the re-release of these sets hurts either
> builders or collectors, or TLC? Because I just don't see it.
Just tried to give my explanation. It would be very easy for TLC to release
changed Legends, which would make both players and collectors glad. Tht's all I
say. But I alway read about people who would like to get the original for low
prices. That would give profit to noone but these cheap price buyers.
Leg Godt!
Ben
(who is NO speculator or MISB collector).
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> > I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans • if
> > TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
>
> If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
> junior and low quality crap like this.
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
>
> You surely never have heard any complaining by me about too high prices of • Lego
> sets. I want high quality stuff (like TLC made it in the past). If you haven't
> noticed: new bricks have higher tolerances (wich is bad) and are more weak. So
> they get scratches and are warped even as new bricks sometimes. If Lego wants
> to make profit with crap, they have to look for other consumers than me.
Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I was
refering to. The minifig is from the re-release of the Guarded Inn and
demonstrates why I really not will have to worry about new Metroliners at
all....
Ok, I become sarcastic. But you asked for cheap Guarded Inns and now you have
them at last. But I do not want to hear anybody complain about his weak-plastic
sets lateron. Have fun with your (not legendary) legends. ;-)
Leg Godt!
Ben
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Reinhard "Ben" Beneke wrote in message ...
> Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
> picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
>
> This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I
was
LOL! I *want* that minifig head!
Kevin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Craftsman Lego Kits & Custom models: http://www.lionsgatemodels.com
Brickbay Lego parts store: http://www.brickbay.com/store.asp?p=Kevinw1
eBay Lego auctions: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/kevinw1/
The Guild of Bricksmiths: http://www.bricksmiths.com
Personal Lego Web page:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/kwilson_tccs/lego.html
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Kevin Wilson writes:
> Reinhard "Ben" Beneke wrote in message ...
> > Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
> > picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
> >
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
> >
> > This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I
> was
>
> LOL! I *want* that minifig head!
Oh THAT! That's the new minifig 'Internet emoticon' editon head. Look for
more to come, including:
; )
: P
: D
> : *
And more!
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Ben,
Are changing your argument against re-releases from an issue of
collectability to an issue of quality control???
Yes, we have seen problems with production runs of train bases, some alleged
printing smudgy-ness on 10000 flags, Indian horses in the 10000 boxes, etc.
I'm sure these issues will be worked out over time. Big deal. If you get a
sub-par part, Lego has always been there to rectify the situation.
But are these production problems going to stop me from buying a 10001
Metroliner? No way.
Do I consider these quality problems major? No. They are very minor and will
be fixed, I'm sure.
And I'm sure Lego would be more than happy to send Christian a new maiden
mini-figure.
> This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I • was
> refering to
I have seen your pictures in Brickshelf, but I don't think there has been
much active discussion about quality control. At least in the forums I
follow (.general, .trains, .marketplace) (but feel free to direct me to the
threads if I'm wrong.)
> The minifig is from the re-release of the Guarded Inn and
> demonstrates why I really not will have to worry about new Metroliners at
> all....
I don't get this point. What do you have to worry about with the new
Metroliners? That they will decrease the "value" of your collection?
Bryan
"Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
news:GGMx56.JJ0@lugnet.com...
> Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
> picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
>
> This is another typical example for the new Lego quality standard, which I • was
> refering to. The minifig is from the re-release of the Guarded Inn and
> demonstrates why I really not will have to worry about new Metroliners at
> all....
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Bryan Kinkel writes:
> Ben,
> Are changing your argument against re-releases from an issue of
> collectability to an issue of quality control???
No - he's not chaning his argument, he's just adding new ones as new info
comes available. I was about to post about the latest bad quality on
.lego.direct but Ben has beaten me by a few hours and mentioned it on this
thread about Legends. Since that head has been found inside a legend set I
think it's impossible to ignrore the quality-argument. His other arguments
[all really good] have been mostly ignored here and I have the impression
that you try to negotiate the bad quality too.
If interested, you may now also find a close-up of the head piece here:
http://www.brickmaster.de/Guarded/ [scroll down to updated]
> Yes, we have seen problems with production runs of train bases, some alleged
> printing smudgy-ness on 10000 flags, Indian horses in the 10000 boxes, etc.
> I'm sure these issues will be worked out over time. Big deal. If you get a
> sub-par part, Lego has always been there to rectify the situation.
Yes, that kind of service is *usually* okay. However, for example, about one
year back I did order LEGO set #5222 from S@H and one piece was missing! The
wierd thing is that it has NEVER been replaced:
http://members.tripod.de/crazymaniac/52XX/new_ele2.jpg
[ from: http://members.tripod.de/crazymaniac/52XX/52XX.html ]
I contacted the Consumer Service five times because of this element - but
each and every time I got excactly the same wrong replacement parts. So I
gave up and I still have never seen that piece in reality (since #5222 is
the only set to include it!). What do you say about replacement now - do you
think five trials without results is reasonable?
And now back to Legends and Trains :)
> But are these production problems going to stop me from buying a 10001
> Metroliner? No way.
No, of course not! I will certainly buy at least one copy of the new
versions, because I am happy to take what I get. But still I feel a little
sad that LEGO has stolen the spirit of the original Metroliner! It's not
becuase I am a collector and fear my collection to be worth less. And it's
not that I am jalous that everyone can now get a Metroliner or the rare
parts from it. It's simply a feeling of losing something individual, as if
someone has taken away your diary or anything that reminds you of your very
own past. It's confusing and I somehow don't like it! I don't have logical
arguments for my point of view, but I would rather NOT have seen re-releases
in the way they are! A few years back it has been possible to release #2150,
the red trains station that was originally sold in yellow. That was such a
great idea and I don't see any reason for doing the same with the Legends
line. Did you ever wonder what a Guarded Inn might look like with tan
instead of red, darkgrey instead of light and brown instead of black? Now -
that would have been something to make *really everyone* happy!
And at last - when does TLC finally come up with a re-issue that I do *not*
have the original set of already?
> And I'm sure Lego would be more than happy to send Christian a new maiden
> mini-figure.
Well, I will call them tomorrow and see if they can send me a new figure
without claiming the broken one. I would rather keep the damaged one - after
all I think some AFOLs would trade ten correct ones to get this "infected"
head, haha!
> I have seen your pictures in Brickshelf, but I don't think there has been
> much active discussion about quality control. At least in the forums I
> follow (.general, .trains, .marketplace) (but feel free to direct me to the
> threads if I'm wrong.)
Yes, another strange curiosity. On www.1000steine.de there is a lot of
discussion about the latest quality and many are upset about it. Could you
explain to me why the majority of Lugnet members does not care about that
extreme loss of quality - don't you care as much about the bricks?
> I don't get this point. What do you have to worry about with the new
> Metroliners? That they will decrease the "value" of your collection?
Well, you probably don't want to understand it. Ben came up with really good
arguments that you ignored. I agree with him in all aspects - the new sets
are too close to the first releases and in long-term they will harm the LEGO
brand.
I feel sad whenever I see another Legend has been killed! I will buy them,
but not like the circumstances of getting them.
[But I was soooo happy a few years back when #2150 was released]
P.S.: Thanks Ben for uploading the images to Brickshelf faster than I added
them on http://www.brickmaster.de/Guarded/
Bye, Christian --- xTIAN.oO
--------------------------------------------------
Lugnet Member #479 -- The World is full of AFOLs !
mail: xtian@brickmaster.de web: www.brickmaster.de
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
> No, of course not! I will certainly buy at least one copy of the new
> versions, because I am happy to take what I get. But still I feel a little
> sad that LEGO has stolen the spirit of the original Metroliner! It's not
> becuase I am a collector and fear my collection to be worth less. And it's
> not that I am jalous that everyone can now get a Metroliner or the rare
> parts from it. It's simply a feeling of losing something individual, as if
> someone has taken away your diary or anything that reminds you of your very
> own past.
Sounds like you're complaining about a loss of nostalgia. I think you're in the
minority, though. People who have the original set will feel a bit slighted, but
people who don't have it feel like they're receiving a gift from Lego. That's
just the way it is.
> Did you ever wonder what a Guarded Inn might look like with tan
> instead of red, darkgrey instead of light and brown instead of black? Now -
> that would have been something to make *really everyone* happy!
Not me--I don't like the new colors. Anything other than the classic colors just
looks cheap and Juniorized to me.
> Well, you probably don't want to understand it. Ben came up with really good
> arguments that you ignored.
I think he understood it, but that doesn't mean he has to agree. Lugnet's a big
community, and people will continue to have different opinions about these
issues.
> I agree with him in all aspects - the new sets
> are too close to the first releases and in long-term they will harm the LEGO
> brand.
How will they harm the Lego brand?
I understand your point about quality control. It's pretty sad that there have
been so many errors in recent sets and that the printing is not as good.
I still think it's great that Lego is letting kids get some of these classic
sets, though. Just because a book is reprinted, it doesn't mean the first
edition loses its value. Lego may be a collectible, but first and foremost it's
a toy, and I know I'll have fun with the Legends sets I buy.
Jacob
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
To All,
> > No, of course not! I will certainly buy at least one copy of the new
> > versions, because I am happy to take what I get. But still I feel a little
> > sad that LEGO has stolen the spirit of the original Metroliner! It's not
> > becuase I am a collector and fear my collection to be worth less. And it's
> > not that I am jalous that everyone can now get a Metroliner or the rare
> > parts from it. It's simply a feeling of losing something individual, as if
> > someone has taken away your diary or anything that reminds you of your very
> > own past.
That is a very interesting notion. I saved up and bought the Metroliner when
it first came out, and I still have it today, and I love it too death.
However, just because it is coming out in a new form, does not mean I lost
that memory. I would hope that legions of new people that have never
experienced that set would have those memories, and maybe in the future,
have mor emembers of LUGNET and LUGS and so on.
> Sounds like you're complaining about a loss of nostalgia. I think you're in
> the minority, though. People who have the original set will feel a bit
> slighted,
Well, I for one am glad they are coming out with it again, I am not slighted
in the least. Compared to the 4561, etc. it is an awesome prospect for new
people to have a crack at this set, without having to spend 400+ for it.
> but
> people who don't have it feel like they're receiving a gift from Lego. That's
> just the way it is.
Right.
> > Did you ever wonder what a Guarded Inn might look like with tan
> > instead of red, darkgrey instead of light and brown instead of black? Now -
> > that would have been something to make *really everyone* happy!
>
> Not me--I don't like the new colors. Anything other than the classic colors
> just
> looks cheap and Juniorized to me.
Well, YMMV on that one. If you want the Gaurded Inn in other colors, go for it!
I like the classic colors myself.
> > Well, you probably don't want to understand it. Ben came up with really good
> > arguments that you ignored.
I read them, although I disagree with them, that is his POV.
> I think he understood it, but that doesn't mean he has to agree. Lugnet's a
> big community, and people will continue to have different opinions about
> these issues.
Among others. : )
> > I agree with him in all aspects - the new sets
> > are too close to the first releases and in long-term they will harm the LEGO
> > brand.
Now that is very profound. How can they be hurt by making money on a
re-released set? I can't disagree more.
> I understand your point about quality control. It's pretty sad that there have
> been so many errors in recent sets and that the printing is not as good.
They need to look at that. The whole line has suffered over the last few
years, especially the SW sets started that.
> I still think it's great that Lego is letting kids get some of these classic
> sets, though. Just because a book is reprinted, it doesn't mean the first
> edition loses its value. Lego may be a collectible, but first and foremost
> it's a toy, and I know I'll have fun with the Legends sets I buy.
Indeed.
Scott S.
--
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
> > > No, of course not! I will certainly buy at least one copy of the new
> > > versions, because I am happy to take what I get. But still I feel a little
> > > sad that LEGO has stolen the spirit of the original Metroliner! It's not
> > > becuase I am a collector and fear my collection to be worth less. And it's
> > > not that I am jalous that everyone can now get a Metroliner or the rare
> > > parts from it. It's simply a feeling of losing something individual, as if
> > > someone has taken away your diary or anything that reminds you of your very
> > > own past.
Wow, that strikes me as as a little strange. Seeing the set
re-released shouldn't damage your nostalgia for the set.
All those happy memories are still there!
I bought a metroliner off the shelf in 1995. It was getting rare
at the time - it had just disappeared from the catalog so I
knew it was time to splurge if I wanted it.
I loved it, had lots of fun showing it off, couldn't ever stand
the idea of disassembling it, and I don't see why other people
getting new metroliners would take those happy feelings away from
me.
Basically I'm thrilled at the idea of buying another one, so I
can make a much longer train. Or at least buying a few of the
coveted club cars! Yippee!
> That is a very interesting notion. I saved up and bought the Metroliner when
> it first came out, and I still have it today, and I love it too death.
> However, just because it is coming out in a new form, does not mean I lost
> that memory. I would hope that legions of new people that have never
> experienced that set would have those memories, and maybe in the future,
> have mor emembers of LUGNET and LUGS and so on.
These re-releases strike me as pure goodness.
I do understand that some people would like for them to be
re-released in new colors or the like, both to preserve the
collectability of the originals and to offer more choices to
fans who already have the originals, but I'm glad that the metroliner
will have its original colors. So I can buy another and add it
to my existing train!
I didn't mind the idea of the Metrostation getting re-released
in a new color - I thought that was pretty neat, but I don't
see why that should be a requirement for the Legends series.
I say, make them as close as they can be to the originals. The
originals will still be worth more, particularly if they have
their original packaging. If I was a Castle Completist, I'd
sure rather have the original yellow box for the guarded inn
than a gray-scale one.
Anyway, once these sets sell out, people can go back to speculating
and auctioning off these sets. It's not like a metroliner is
suddenly going to become passe just because it's been re-released.
Buy a Legends guarded inn now, I can guarantee that you'll be able
to make a profit on it when the re-release is discontinued.
I hope that this goes on for months, with dozens of classic sets
brought back over the next few years. It would go a long way towards
curing my distaste towards juniorization of the current lines - at
least some good non-juniorized sets would always be available, even
if they're copies of old sets. If LEGO can't design 'em like that
any more, so be it. Sell us the old stuff.
Of course, I'd prefer a boost in design quality of current
offerings, too. But I can't look this gift horse (the Legends
line) in the mouth and find anything wrong with it.
--
Jeff <jthompson@esker.com> "Float on a river, forever and ever, Emily"
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
<SNIP!>
The only complaint/issue that I have with the Legends/re-issue/Direct
merchandise is that I have to figure out (a) what I want, (b) what I need
and (c) which will be unavailable to me later as a Direct purchase item?!?
I LOVE that the Guarded Inn is re-released, I bought four! I love the parts
in them! I NEED those colors!! As for the Metroliner (etc.) in trains,
well, those NEW Trains (you know pick your color and design) and the NEW
cargo cars are the best new product out of LEGO in about 10 years!! They
are original and allow me to build my train set with what elements I like,
not to mention the G-R-E-A-T parts assortment available from S@H!!!!! I
could make a Train BETTER than the Metroliner!!!!! Ha-ha-ha-ha!!!! But!
Yes there is a but!! It is this, the Legends Metroliner is a lot cheaper
than my alternatives at S@H and very well built. Most of what I buy now is
for parts, so that is my only consideration with the Metroliner, is it worth
it? Now if they had done the Airport Shuttle, no question would be brought
up of value! You know, Collector value only matters if you have the
original model in the original box -sealed-. But then, what is the point?
As a LEGO unbuilt is no LEGO and of no real value, unless a nut wants to buy
it mint and build it! I am such a nut who must decide where to put his
money, and I'm a-leanin' way over to the NEW Trains and a little away from
the Metroliner re-do. What I really want to know is how this Limited
collector series of Pirate sets is going to be available, and for how long?
That gives me lots to consider, and I find myself scaling back retail store
purchases in favor of Direct product. If LEGO would offer more original
sets, I might be more excited. The Metroliner just doesn't *excite* me like
the Guarded Inn did, as the parts are all in my bins with all the new bulk
items available. And those NEW Trains are nifty keen-o!!
2-cents,
-Aaron-
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Christian Gemünden writes:
> Yes, another strange curiosity. On www.1000steine.de there is a lot of
> discussion about the latest quality and many are upset about it. Could you
> explain to me why the majority of Lugnet members does not care about that
> extreme loss of quality - don't you care as much about the bricks?
Well, I don't know about a "majority" opinion, but I am a Lugnet member and
I think the quality control issue is a VERY big issue. I am not so hopped
up about the issue of how the elements are actually molded, my bigger issue
remains the printing of elements. I once noted some time ago that 18 out of
22 heads of the Defense Archer #4811 came to me misprinted, some were just
smudged whereas others were printed off the face so that the head had a
missing beard and such. Getting replacements was no big deal, but they DID
want the misprinted heads back again! I dunno...for my trouble I'd assumed
I could keep the heads and make some customs, but no!
The printing of the elements has been getting worse for some time too. It
really must stop!
-- Hop-Frog
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Christian Gemünden writes:
>
> If interested, you may now also find a close-up of the head piece here:
> http://www.brickmaster.de/Guarded/ [scroll down to updated]
Wow!
If the piece wasn't malformed/misshapen, I'd pay big money
to buy that head!
Obviously not the response you were hoping for. :^)
I can't judge from the photos how bad the printing on the torsos
of the figures is.
I've been hoping that the gold paint used in the print on the
re-release minifigs won't wear off as easily as it did on
the original minifigs. I have so many "crossed-axe" torsos
with the gold rubbed off. It seems like a single day of
carrying a figure around in a pocket was enough to wipe off
a lot of the gold paint.
I would accept some blurriness in return for the paint not
wearing off. ie, if the new printing methods improve the
resiliency of the paint in exchange for some blurriness, I think
I won't mind. But do the torsos look *really* bad?
Perhaps a scan zoomed WAY in on both an old and a new torso
would show the differences.
--
Jeff <jthompson@esker.com> "Float on a river, forever and ever, Emily"
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
I think Ben is right. first of all, lego should stop juniorizing their new
sets, let alone their vastly popular train sets. i think the 9v train sets
were great, up until the 4560-or the US version the 4561. the 4559 looked
ok, but with alittle customizing and work, it could turn out to be a great
looking set.(in my opinion-with my MOC 4559). people wonder why Lego is
loosing money...and they dont have any idea. ill give you an idea why,
BECAUSE THE NEW LEGO SETS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE, AND KINDA SUCK. excuse my
language but its true. they are selling for more money, and have less
pieces. i look at older catalogs and wish every night that lego will have a
change of opinion, and start making better sets so everyone can enjoy and
afford them. as for a remake of the Metroliner in different colors,
especally the darker grey version that everyone and their mothers want lego
to bring back, IM ALL FOR IT!!! I myself do not currently have a 4558, and i
am looking for one in mint condition, but if Lego makes a newer,
unjuniorized one, ill be the first to buy it.
Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
we're happy and their happy.
As for Ben, the owner of Bens World of ABS, and the member of the FGLTC, a
very respectible Lego Train Club, he is very helpful and kind. I had the
privilege to talk to him about making a new LTC, one for New Yorkers. He
gave me some great suggestions on how to fix my site. I am happy to talk to
him and other lego fans. please email me at RAZOREDGE442@aol.com with any
info on getting a petition started for a new Metroliner, and also please
check out my BRAND NEW LEGO TRAIN CLUB , the GREATER NEW YORK LEGO TRAIN
CLUB!!!!the web address is http://gnyltc.homestead.com/clubinformation.html
thanks and happy building. JOE
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
> Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
> they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
> listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
> unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
> we're happy and their happy.
Wait a minute. I thought lego IS reproducing the metroliner. Isn't it and
the club car the August Lego Legends? Or did I miss something???
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Alexander Johnston writes:
> > Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
> > they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
> > listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
> > unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
> > we're happy and their happy.
>
>
> Wait a minute. I thought lego IS reproducing the metroliner. Isn't it and
> the club car the August Lego Legends? Or did I miss something???
Umm, yes. They are re-releaseing these sets. And you probably are missing
SOMETHING if you own any LEGO or have ever bought large quantities of said
brick.
What I want to know, is when are the Collector Pirate sets coming out!?
Any info I may have missed?
-Aaron-
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
> Umm, yes. They are re-releaseing these sets. And you probably are missing
> SOMETHING if you own any LEGO or have ever bought large quantities of said
> brick.
> What I want to know, is when are the Collector Pirate sets coming out!?
> Any info I may have missed?
> -Aaron-
Ha Ha. Very funny. :-)
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Alexander Johnston writes:
> > Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
> > they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
> > listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
> > unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
> > we're happy and their happy.
>
>
> Wait a minute. I thought lego IS reproducing the metroliner. Isn't it and
> the club car the August Lego Legends? Or did I miss something???
Lego is reproducing these GREAT SETS?(4558 and 4547)? will there be any
packaging or differences to the trains that are visible?where can i get more
info on these new sets? Joe Franco
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
> Lego is reproducing these GREAT SETS?(4558 and 4547)? will there be any
> packaging or differences to the trains that are visible?where can i get more
> info on these new sets? Joe Franco
There might be some minor packaging differences, but the set itself should
be exactly the same compared to the 1992 Metroliner. Same thing goes for
the club car as well. I am now scambling to get off my unemployed ass and
start scraping up some cash to get these sets.
One more thing. The little number for the re-released metroliner is 10001
and the club car is 10002. Punch those numbers up on the lugnet database
and you should get a little more info.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
"Alexander Johnston" <Areas-4@excite.com> writes:
> There might be some minor packaging differences
The new sets tend to come out in black/white boxes with new set
numbers. I think that is beyond minor differences.
> but the set itself should be exactly the same compared to the 1992
> Metroliner.
We will probably see differences in minifig elements (when was the new
torso and head introduced?) as well as differences in stickers or
patterned parts.
There are also some elements which change over the years, so it will
probably be possible to tell the new set from the old one. Typically,
minor details such as hollow vs non-hollow studs tend to change from
time to time on certain elements.
Fredrik
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Joe Franco writes:
>
> I think Ben is right. first of all, lego should stop juniorizing their new
> sets, let alone their vastly popular train sets. i think the 9v train sets
> were great, up until the 4560-or the US version the 4561. the 4559 looked
> ok, but with alittle customizing and work, it could turn out to be a great
> looking set.(in my opinion-with my MOC 4559). people wonder why Lego is
> loosing money...and they dont have any idea. ill give you an idea why,
> BECAUSE THE NEW LEGO SETS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE, AND KINDA SUCK. excuse my
> language but its true. they are selling for more money, and have less
> pieces. i look at older catalogs and wish every night that lego will have a
> change of opinion, and start making better sets so everyone can enjoy and
> afford them. as for a remake of the Metroliner in different colors,
> especally the darker grey version that everyone and their mothers want lego
> to bring back, IM ALL FOR IT!!! I myself do not currently have a 4558, and i
> am looking for one in mint condition, but if Lego makes a newer,
> unjuniorized one, ill be the first to buy it.
> Maybe if everyone signs a petition to lego about making another METROLINER,
> they will consider reproducing them. it could work. right? maybe if they do
> listen to us and do reproduce the metroliner, it will occur to them that
> unjuniorizing their sets will boost up sales 100%. its a win-win situation.
> we're happy and their happy.
> As for Ben, the owner of Bens World of ABS, and the member of the FGLTC, a
> very respectible Lego Train Club, he is very helpful and kind. I had the
> privilege to talk to him about making a new LTC, one for New Yorkers. He
> gave me some great suggestions on how to fix my site. I am happy to talk to
> him and other lego fans. please email me at RAZOREDGE442@aol.com with any
> info on getting a petition started for a new Metroliner, and also please
> check out my BRAND NEW LEGO TRAIN CLUB , the GREATER NEW YORK LEGO TRAIN
> CLUB!!!!the web address is http://gnyltc.homestead.com/clubinformation.html
> thanks and happy building. JOE
Well Joe, thats a good start for the GNYLTC. I expect your membership to
steadily grow and thrive.-Harvey
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Christian Gemünden writes:
> Yes, that kind of service is *usually* okay. However, for example, about one
> year back I did order LEGO set #5222 from S@H and one piece was missing! The
> wierd thing is that it has NEVER been replaced:
>
> http://members.tripod.de/crazymaniac/52XX/new_ele2.jpg
> [ from: http://members.tripod.de/crazymaniac/52XX/52XX.html ]
Well, I have to add that the Consumer Service is not only *usually* okay -
it certainly rocks and is the best Consumer Service I have ever heard of! Of
course I am sad about missing elements and defected parts - but the two
pieces I claimed above have arrived today for free - and I haven't even
contacted the Consumer Service, they have reacted to my posting here on
Lugnet and sent the pieces to me in Germany! Excellent!
I had to add that to my original posting - my opinion about Legends will not
change though - it is a nostalgica thing and I'm sad that excactly the same
stuff is coming back. I had hopes that more old style sets would come out
(such as the recent train wagons which are awesome).
Bye, Christian --- xTIAN.oO
--------------------------------------------------
Lugnet Member #479 -- The World is full of AFOLs !
mail: xtian@brickmaster.de web: www.brickmaster.de
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Christian Gemuenden wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Christian Gemünden writes:
>
>
>
> Well, I have to add that the Consumer Service is not only *usually* okay -
> it certainly rocks and is the best Consumer Service I have ever heard of! Of
> course I am sad about missing elements and defected parts - but the two
> pieces I claimed above have arrived today for free - and I haven't even
> contacted the Consumer Service, they have reacted to my posting here on
> Lugnet and sent the pieces to me in Germany! Excellent!
Now *THAT'S* what I call customer service!! {:^D
(I wonder if they would give me a ride to the airport next week?)
-John
>
>
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> > > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
>
> > > I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans • if
> > > TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
> >
> > If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
> > junior and low quality crap like this.
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
> >
> > You surely never have heard any complaining by me about too high prices of • Lego
> > sets. I want high quality stuff (like TLC made it in the past). If you haven't
> > noticed: new bricks have higher tolerances (wich is bad) and are more weak. So
> > they get scratches and are warped even as new bricks sometimes. If Lego wants
> > to make profit with crap, they have to look for other consumers than me.
>
> Sorry for answering on my own posting, but I just have got an interesting
> picture, which I have uploaded at brickshelf right now:
>
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=56138
Woha! A Mona Lisa head! You lucky guy! (And he's complaining!!! LOL)
Dean
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
> In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> >
> > > I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> > > said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no • advantage
> > > for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> > > helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
> >
> > No. Wrong.
> >
> > TLC gets no benefit from things sold on the secondary market. It doesn't • allow
> > them to "artificially" inflate prices on "new" items... how many posts do we
> > see on Lugnet complaining about the "price per piece" going up?
> >
> > The only people that benefit from the price of a used (or out-of-production
> > [OOP] MISB) set being driven up by collectors is... collectors. Actually, not
> > even the collectors really benefit- the only people that benefit are those • that
> > sit on multiple sealed copies of an old set, waiting for the price to go up so
> > they can sell them at a profit. This is commonly known as "speculating" and
> > the people that do it are known as "speculators".
>
> And what about the "normal" people who go into their dark ages? Lots of people
> know about the secondary market for used Lego toys and they do benefit by
> selling their used stuff.
>
> I think high prices for used stuff make it easier for Lego to sell their new
> stuff. I can buy Duplo for a child and it's no problem to ged rid of it
> a few years later. I think even those parly nuts prices for MISB sets make
> people look at our hobby and make them sure about, it is a serious hobby, and
> not a childish one.
>
> > TLC re-releasing the sets will benefit *everyone* except the speculators.
> >
> > Those that just plain want a set (I, for example, would love to have a
> > Metroliner, and will definitely buy one- my first train set!) will buy it from
> > TLC. Before now, if I wanted a Metroliner, I would have to look for one from
> > someone else, taking a bigger chunk of my LEGO budget- and NONE of that money
> > would go to TLC! Getting some of that money flowing back to TLC is good for
> > not only TLC, but also for LEGO fans. In case you hadn't noticed, TLC has • been
> > having financial trouble lately. I feel it is a great benefit to LEGO fans if
> > TLC *stays in business* and keeps making sets.
>
> If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
> junior and low quality crap like this.
> http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
Ben, we ALL get bad parts. Most of the time they are standard bits and we just use
one from our sets. If it's an important part we phone LEGO and get another. It
happens. I get a bad or chewed part in 1 in 25 sets on average. That's less then 1%
error. (That is the commonly accepted failure rate for electronics) So in this day
and age of Mass production I think LEGO is doing a good job. I agree some of there
molds could use some TLC but LEGO is cutting edge on the injection molding.
Taking pictures of all your issues and posting them is pretty sad really. You've
lost all credibility with me.
Dean
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Dean Husby writes:
> Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
>
> > In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> > > In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes: • [snip]
> >
> > If they keep making good sets. I do not need a company which produces town
> > junior and low quality crap like this.
> > http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=2880
> Taking pictures of all your issues and posting them is pretty sad really. • You've
> lost all credibility with me.
Sorry Dean,
but that sound like the ancient Roman method to me: kill the bringer of the bad
news and "solve" a problem by doing so.
If I loose my credibility, because I collect a few pictures of bad parts, that
has to be a kind of credit I'm happy to get rid of...
"Leg Godt!"
Ben
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Eric Joslin writes:
> Those that just plain want a set (I, for example, would love to have a
> Metroliner, and will definitely buy one- my first train set!) will buy it from
> TLC.
You bring up an excellent point, Eric, namely the fact that these Legend
re-releases might cause many of us to cross themes. For example, I've never
been a castle head, but I will undoubtedly buy one of the Guarded Inn sets.
Who knows, perhaps the Legends will spur a whole new cross-pollination of
builders >and< collectors.
Expand well,
Andreas Stabno
http://www.lugnet.com/~19/
XFUT lego.direct
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
I thought Lego was a company that makes toys, to be played with.
Trading cards are made to be collected, not to be used as drink coasters.
If a Lego set is in demand, then Lego will make more of that set because to
them it indicates that the sets being played with. They wont stop making
that item just because they think that set will be a collectible. What
benefit does that provide to them?
Are we perhaps getting confused between whats a collectible, and whats an
item in demand?
Santosh
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> In lugnet.trains, Bryan Kinkel writes:
> > Here we go again...
> >
> > "Reinhard "Ben" Beneke" <r.beneke@tu-bs.de> wrote in message
> > news:GGKIFH.D1t@lugnet.com...
> > > As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also • a
> > > collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> > > Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things • and
> > > play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the • "players"
> > > want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to • have
> > > rare sets.
> >
> > Ugh.
> >
> > Ben, I really do respect you and your building achievements, but I have to
> > disagree here.
> >
> > In the end, I can't stand the fact that Lego is a "collector's item". The
> > fact of the matter is this - collectors drive up prices.
>
> Only the prices for the collectors item. I wish Lego to serve both groups as I
> said, but at the moment Lego works "against" the collectors. I see no advantage
> for TLC to do so: the collectors make the prices for used stuff high. this
> helps TLC to sell new stuff at high prices also: good for their profit.
>
> > I am a builder, not a collector. While I do have a "Lego collection", I
> > don't purchase the product to see the price rise, or to sit models on a
> > glass shelf never to be touched again. I don't purchase the product just for
> > the sake of having something that few others have. I don't purchase the
> > product just for the satisfaction of owning it.
>
> Sometime I do all the above mentioned: lots of other people do the same. What's
> wrong about it?
>
> > I open all my sets.
>
> I do it in the same way, but I do not damn those who collect MISB sets. Why
> should I do. They share my hobby (even if it is in a strongly different way,
> but I do not damn Bionicle fans either.)
>
> > I build
> > models and I can't wait to see what my daughter does with Lego.
>
>
> > > ...and nearly all people around
> > > have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
> > > weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
> >
> > Wrong. How do you know what sets I have?
> > I don't have a Metroliner. Or a Club Car. I will not pay $250 for a used
> > 4558. I won't pay $350+ for a MISB 4558. And I would much rather purchase a
> > set from directly from S@H instead of on the secondary market.
>
> But tell me why do you need a Metroliner, but are not willing to pay its
> marketprice? Would you have had a problem with a evidently changed Metroliner
> (for e.g. in dark gray)?
>
> > > And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> > > Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well • designed
> > > train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the • next
> > > train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than
> > 4560.
> >
> > And what evidence do you have of this? In my opinion, all signs point to the
> > fact that the 9v train line is alive and kicking. And the models are getting
> > better and better.
>
> Trains are alive, but I see them not become better and better. 3225 was a lame
> set, 4560 also, 2126 was only a good spare part box. My own train and the
> new waggons are quite ok (back on the level of the mid-nineties, but not better
> than anything from the 80ies.)
>
> > (and as an aside, I would rather see smaller, similar
> > themed cars as separate sets rather than big $140 sets)
>
> I agree.
>
> >
> > > If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on • the
> > > one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, • 4551 is
> > > a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
> > > fantastic set!)
> >
> > Again, what evidence do you have of this assumption? I doubt there will be
> > another train-oriented Legends release for a long time.
>
> I was speaking of the assumption that the now released line of Legends became a
> big success and make lots of profit. Surely TLC would follow then this way and
> the best sets of the 9V line have been 4558, 4547, 4551 and 4536. the last two
> one are "in danger" to be re-released.
>
> > I'm sure Brad & Lego
> > Direct will examine all the lines and themes and ensure that they have equal
> > representation in Legends. There are a lot of sets and I'm sure the Space
> > fans are waiting for the Galaxy Explorer.
>
> Yes, I fear this will be one of the next dead legends. Would anybody have a
> problem with a new Classic Space Logo (or a mirrored one)?
>
> > In the meantime, I just don't
> > think Lego would re-release another full sized train set for a long, long
> > time.
>
> That's also speculation, but I agree. If each month means just one or two new
> legends, there have to be first some other themes: Technic (953 or 8880?),
> Pirates (6385?), Space (497 or 6954?), Town, Western, ....
>
> > The Legends are helpful for
> > a) Children getting into Lego for the first time.
> But they do not need a 100% copy and kids do not buy via S@H at www.lego.com
> anyway.
> > b) Adults who put Lego away during the early 90's and missed out on a lot
> > fantastic sets. • Adult could affort the real sets or live with not 100% copies either
> > c) Anyone who does not have the funds to purchase these sets on the
> > secondary market. • I would prefer to own one "real" legend instead of 5 cheap copies of one...
> > d) Anyone who wants awesome Lego sets.
>
> The Sopwith Camel is a great set: better TLC invents new cool sets on a
> quality level like that.
>
> > Ben - I'm sorry to hear that LD has taken the wind out of your collectable
> > sails.
>
> It has not: thye will never re-release the 139 and others. ;-))
>
> > But there is nothing stopping you from still enjoying your closet
> > full of mint-in-box 4558's and other sets.
>
> I have bought some MISB train sets during the past years (even over 30 years
> old ones!): I have opened them all. I'm no MISB-freak, but I know about friends
> who are: still - what's wrong about?
>
> Even if people try to make profit by buying sealed stuff: Is making profit
> suddenly wrong?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Ben
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> Dear all!
>
> I'm really glad with most of the latest news we have heared from TLC. Bulk
> order becomes better and better, (in Germany you can buy at S@H even without
> credit card!), the "My Own Trains" and the new waggons are nice as models and
> especially for delivering spares. The Sopwith Camel is one of the greatest sets
> ever in my eyes and Harry Potter isn't as bad as many people think about
> it, since it offers lots of play fun (for kids) and lots of nice detailed sets
> for not too
> much money. Only the Hogwarts Express is a very lame modell in my opinion.
>
> But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all. There have
> been some worth to read discussions (mainly Europeans against Americans) about
> the Guarded Inn and at this point we have the same effects concerning the
> trains. I think Jojo has said nearly all about what makes a set a legend and
> why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
>
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
> want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
> rare sets.
>
> The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
I have no problem with the "slight" changes you suggest. But those will
result in extra (slight?) development costs, and so may make other Legend
sets a little less likely. I cannot find a picture of the "new" metroliner
on Lego.com, but the changes I hope for a as follows:
No Transformer/PS - I have enough
No Track - I have enough
No motor - I have enough
Smaller box!
With those changes, we may save 30-40%?
Scott A
>
> I would buy such a set immediately (imagine how much new cool MOCs you could
> make up with dark gray bricks!). But I see nothing good in a simple 100% copy
> of 4558: grey windows are available at S@H anyway and nearly all people around
> have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
> weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
>
> And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well designed
> train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the next
> train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than 4560.
>
> If you ask me, TLC would have done a bigger favour to us AFOLs if they had
> released a new set maybe somewhat similar to 4564, but with cool new colours
> like dark gray, tan, brown etc. I want to see a set with big train wheels
> (including the possibility to add connecting rods) and with dark gray (or red)
> wheel blocks, with dark gray magnet couplings etc. THAT would have been worth a
> "Woow!!"
>
> If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on the
> one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, 4551 is
> a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
> fantastic set!)
>
> The new 1000x series just kills legends and is not helpful for me at
> all, since I get just "boring" stuff I have right now.... (I'm both collector
> and builder).
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Ben
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
> I have no problem with the "slight" changes you suggest. But those will
> result in extra (slight?) development costs, and so may make other Legend
> sets a little less likely. I cannot find a picture of the "new" metroliner
> on Lego.com, but the changes I hope for a as follows:
>
> No Transformer/PS - I have enough
> No Track - I have enough
> No motor - I have enough
> Smaller box!
>
> With those changes, we may save 30-40%?
>
> Scott A
Scott- I agree 90% with you here. Lose the track and transformer. I like
motors though. I've got more than enough curved rail.
In general, I think LD would be better off selling trains piecemeal rather
than large $150 sets. Each year they could offer a new engine style and two
or three similarly themed cars to go with it, as separate sets. (It looks
like this is the year of the steam and classic looking trains. Perhaps next
year will be a cargo theme.)
Lego Direct can continue to bundle cars, track and transformer at the
catalog level to offer a one-stop solution.
This packaging method and the fact that these are S@H only sets do keep
trains out of the retail channel. But I'm sure Lego will continue to offer a
single box, mass market train every two years or so for Toys R Us and the
other retailers.
It looks like, for the foreseeable future, Lego Direct and S@H is where the
action is for the serious Lego train fan. Fine by me.
Bryan
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Bryan Kinkel wrote:
> It looks like, for the foreseeable future, Lego Direct and S@H is where the
> action is for the serious Lego train fan. Fine by me.
Yes. Let LD show Denmark how popular trains still are, and then let *Denmark*
spring for the serious train line upgrades (DCC, New track, wheels, couplers,
automatic points and gates, etc)
That way LD won't have to bear the development costs, and the sets can be
available on a larger scale (retail).
-John
>
>
> Bryan
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:GGKL2C.Loo@lugnet.com...
> I have no problem with the "slight" changes you suggest. But those will
> result in extra (slight?) development costs, and so may make other Legend
> sets a little less likely. I cannot find a picture of the "new" metroliner
> on Lego.com, but the changes I hope for a as follows:
>
> No Transformer/PS - I have enough
> No Track - I have enough
> No motor - I have enough
> Smaller box!
>
> With those changes, we may save 30-40%?
Good ideas Scott (though there was no transformer in the Metroliner anyway)
Given that you can purchase the rest at shop at home already (track, motor), then why not package it 'my own train'
style and let people add what they want, and/or not pay for stuff they already have.
No Track - should really read 'No Curves' :-)
regards
lawrence
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Lawrence Wilkes writes:
>
> "Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:GGKL2C.Loo@lugnet.com...
>
> > I have no problem with the "slight" changes you suggest. But those will
> > result in extra (slight?) development costs, and so may make other Legend
> > sets a little less likely. I cannot find a picture of the "new" metroliner
> > on Lego.com, but the changes I hope for a as follows:
> >
> > No Transformer/PS - I have enough
> > No Track - I have enough
> > No motor - I have enough
> > Smaller box!
> >
> > With those changes, we may save 30-40%?
>
>
> Good ideas Scott (though there was no transformer in the Metroliner anyway)
I have never owned one which had its box, so I was not aware of that! I had
a MISB one once, but I sold it. I have now sold/traded all my Metroliners
and Clubcars as they were just too expensive to justify the amount required
to get a decent sized train. I am glad I sold them now!
Scott A
>
> Given that you can purchase the rest at shop at home already (track, motor), then why not package it 'my own train'
> style and let people add what they want, and/or not pay for stuff they already have.
>
> No Track - should really read 'No Curves' :-)
>
> regards
> lawrence
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:GGMH36.4qo@lugnet.com...
> I have never owned one which had its box, so I was not aware of that! I had
> a MISB one once, but I sold it. I have now sold/traded all my Metroliners
> and Clubcars as they were just too expensive to justify the amount required
> to get a decent sized train. I am glad I sold them now!
Well, I havent sold any of mine.
But then they are all played with
I did buy a MISB set for £70 (including a MISB transformer too) not long ago, and promptly opened it!
I have 3
1 bought new
1 bought in bits, and gradually put back together, though still missing one rare piece
1 as described earlier
Plus I have aquired extra windows and doors in trades.
So whilst they will no longer command the value they may once have, I havent lost any money either.
I doubt I will be buying a new legend one. No need. Though some more doors would be nice.
And as for club cars, well I was lucky enough to buy them on clearance at the Entertainer for £14 each.
Wonder what they will be now?
Looking at the other sets, my guess will be around £25
I might buy a couple.
regards
lawrence
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Hello!
> but the changes I hope for a as follows:
> No motor - I have enough
No motor? You will need the motors for the MOCs you're going to build from
your new Metroliners, huh?
Bye
Jojo
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Hello!
Ben, I agree 100%.
Bye
Jojo
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Actually, I'm just happy that LEGO@ has revitalized the trains line. I
consider myself to be a 'player' rather than a collector. While I do pay a
high sum for MISB sets, I open them all and build these (with modifications,
of course). But my motto is "To each his own", do what you will-collect and
display, or collect and build. I love the train waggons, but I think the
Hogworts Express could have been a lot better also. -Harvey
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups:
> the "players" want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors"
> want to have rare sets.
A few thoughts.
Originally, I kinda had this reaction, even from a marketing standpoint of
TLC. I'll give an example.
Charming Tails is a series of small, ceramic collectables, whose value has
been steadily increasing over the past few years. They're obviously doing
something right, albeit it's no fad like Beanie Babies or anything.
When I learned that my friend started collecting them, I gave her some that
I thought were cute, to which her response was something like "Oh yeah, this
one's great! It's their most popular current piece! They're discontinuing it
really soon, too!".
Now, why would they discontinue something that was their best seller?
Marketing. By making it in short supply, the value quickly goes up. And
sure, they won't make more money on *that* particular piece-- BUT, people
are more likely to think that *OTHER* pieces are likely to do the same
thing. So people actually anticipate that certain pieces will do well and
buy them. In some cases, they buy them *ALL* so they can be assured of
something that will increase dramatically in value. So in turn, the company
is making money off the *good* pieces *AND* the "bad" pieces.
But note. Lego is not marketed like a collectable. Never has been, never
will be. Why? Well one reason is that set quality has been decreasing for
quite some time. Hence, nobody expects that current sets will become
"collectors items" like the wonderful sets of the past. I mean, do you
seriously think people in 10 years will be killing for UFO's? I don't. So
I'm not going to buy them for fear that they might become valueable. It's
not a collector's market.
The other issue I have is with what you said. It's rather appauling to me:
> the "players" want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors"
> want to have rare sets.
Why does it appauling? Because in some manner, *I'm* a collector. But I
don't want to have rare sets. I want to have a *collection* of sets. Saying
that you want *rare* sets (and that you don't think the set should be
re-offered) means you actually want other people NOT to have the sets. To me
that's insulting. I want to collect so I can be complete, or get the sets I
like-- not so I can gloat about all the rare things I have, the struggles
I've gone through to get them, and the outrageous prices I could charge for
reselling them. Collecting Lego (to me) should not be about competition, but
about achieving your own goals. For you to say that is, in short, to say
that you don't want me to have a set I really wanted, but YOU still want it.
And *that's* what I don't like about your argument.
But if that *IS* what you want-- if you really *DO* want rare sets-- there
will always be hope for you. Collect *REALLY* rare stuff. Collect things
that TLC *won't* re-release. Collect promotional sets. Collect 60's sets.
Try and hunt down the McDonald's promos sets from the early 80's. Find
yourself some USS Constitutions, some Kabaya sets, and Chess King's. And
take comfort in the fact that your collection is worth far more than mine,
contains more rare things than mine, and that you're more devoted to the
brick than I am by going to such great lengths to get them. I won't mind.
I'll go enjoy having my own collection and building wonderful MOCs from the
pieces contained therein.
But I think (ok, hope) one of the reasons that TLC is re-releasing these
sets is for collectors like *ME*. I have a list of sets I *want*. Not
because they're rare, not because they're hard to find, but because I *like*
them. I couldn't care less if other people have them or not. And I think
it's wonderful that TLC is making sets more widely and easily available for
people who want those sets. And if they modify the sets at all, it defeats
that purpose. I still wouldn't have the sets I wanted-- I'd just want more
sets. And so while it may make equal business sense to TLC insofar as they'd
theoretically make as much money (I honestly don't think they would), it
wouldn't help people to become complete, or to re-collect their
long-lusted-after sets.
The one thing I *DO* agree with you on is that TLC should make sets *like*
the legends line in *addition* to it, not instead of. But hopefully, since
TLC admitted that it was *KIDS* and not AFOLs buying up the majority of
Guarded Inn's, maybe they'll realize the value of stepping away from
juniorization. Anyway, here's hoping.
DaveE
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Summary of my (Chris Masi's post)
(1) I am happy whenever LEGO releases a quality set. For me and my collection, a
re-release of a set that I already own does not reduce the value of my original
set for me.
(2) The popularity of the Legend series may show whether LEGO's current market
analysis is right or wrong; i.e., do kids actually want what LEGO currently says
kids want?
(3) As for the second hand market, supply and demand, it works both ways.
I guess I am a LEGO collector and a builder. I have several sets that are in
their boxes because I don't have the room to get everything out at once.
However, I cannot bare to steal bricks from those sets because I want them to be
complete, so I (or my children) can build that set when the mood strikes me. But
I am not a collector in the sense that I want to go out an pay collectors
prices, and I am not a collector in the sense that I want to go to yard sales to
find the sets. So, that makes me a jealous collector. I am jealous of the people
that have what I want, but it is a friendly jealous. I smile and pine "Oh
wouldn't it be nice to have a 7740, Yours is beautiful."
I have a Metroliner and a Club Car. I don't know if I'll get a second or third
for parts, maybe, maybe not. It depends on a lot of things. Apparently, some
people think my Metroliner is "worth less" now. In resale value maybe, but in my
eyes the value has not changed. I got it because I liked it, and I kept it
because I liked it. Like all my "classic" stuff, I wouldn't sell my Metroliner
(not my Galaxy Explorer, not my Auto Chassis, not my Black Seas Barracuda, not
my Airport Shuttle, not my... you get the point) If I buy a new Metroliner, that
would be the one for parts. The original one, is the original one. The
uniqueness of the set isn't important because of its value, the uniqueness of it
is important for sentimental reasons (why I got it, who gave it to me, how I
felt when I got it...) So, I welcome the Legend series because it will allow
people(me) to buy some very good. I hope more people get the chance to build and
play with Metroliners, Airport Shuttles, and the like.
People who make money selling sets; well, you pay your money and you take your
chances. If LEGO re-releases a set that a speculator has been holding while the
price goes up, then the speculator waited to long. Hey, supply and demand,
speculating is risky, dot coms don't always make you rich, right?
Here is an interesting thought though... if LEGO released a Legend 7740 (a set
I really want, but not at the price it normally goes for[1]) with the mail van,
and LEGO released a really cool new intercity train (same commuter style, not a
high speed style) which would I buy? Tough one. It all depends on how cool the
new one is. You see, the demand for the Legends sets may prove that what people
really want isn't what LEGO currently thinks people want.
Chris
1. Note that I didn't call anyone names for selling these at auction, and that
just because I am not willing to pay a lot for the set does not make me
inherently bad, or cheap, or whatever.
Reinhard \"Ben\" Beneke wrote:
>
> Dear all!
>
> I'm really glad with most of the latest news we have heared from TLC. Bulk
> order becomes better and better, (in Germany you can buy at S@H even without
> credit card!), the "My Own Trains" and the new waggons are nice as models and
> especially for delivering spares. The Sopwith Camel is one of the greatest sets
> ever in my eyes and Harry Potter isn't as bad as many people think about
> it, since it offers lots of play fun (for kids) and lots of nice detailed sets
> for not too
> much money. Only the Hogwarts Express is a very lame modell in my opinion.
>
> But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all. There have
> been some worth to read discussions (mainly Europeans against Americans) about
> the Guarded Inn and at this point we have the same effects concerning the
> trains. I think Jojo has said nearly all about what makes a set a legend and
> why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
>
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
> want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
> rare sets.
>
> The easiest way to solve this conflict would have been to do some slight
> changes in the new releases (for e.g. colour modifications and new printings.)
> The players would get the wished stuff for playing (who would care about a
> mirrored print, if he wants to play with the stuff?) and the collectors would
> be glad to find a new item to get it into the collection. For example the new
> Metroliner could have been same as the old one, but in dark gray.
>
> I would buy such a set immediately (imagine how much new cool MOCs you could
> make up with dark gray bricks!). But I see nothing good in a simple 100% copy
> of 4558: grey windows are available at S@H anyway and nearly all people around
> have a Metroliner now, so we do not need more copies of this set, which is
> weekly sold 10 times via eBay.
>
> And my last point (not too unimportant!): if the AFOL-market gets the
> Metroliner now, this decreases evidently the chance to get a new well designed
> train set (with new parts and new part-colour-combinations). Instead, the next
> train set to follow the 4565 will probably be juniorized even worse than 4560.
>
> If you ask me, TLC would have done a bigger favour to us AFOLs if they had
> released a new set maybe somewhat similar to 4564, but with cool new colours
> like dark gray, tan, brown etc. I want to see a set with big train wheels
> (including the possibility to add connecting rods) and with dark gray (or red)
> wheel blocks, with dark gray magnet couplings etc. THAT would have been worth a
> "Woow!!"
>
> If the legends become a success this will just mean more 4560-like sets on the
> one hand and more re-releases (I think 4551 and 4536 will be next. Yes, 4551 is
> a cool set, but a green or brown 4551 with gray wheel blocks would be a
> fantastic set!)
>
> The new 1000x series just kills legends and is not helpful for me at
> all, since I get just "boring" stuff I have right now.... (I'm both collector
> and builder).
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Ben
--
See some of my LEGO creations at http://cmasi.chem.tulane.edu/~lego/
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
I don't understand how re-releasing these sets is bad for anyone. If you're
a collector, you'll want the original set with its original box. The Legends
packaging is distinctly different from the original packaging. Also, many
Lego pieces are manufactured slightly differently these days, so your
original set will have smiley heads without holes in the top, plates without
little holes in their bottom pegs, etc. The original sets are still rare and
still collectible. Just because you can get a reproduction of an old comic
book, it doesn't mean the first edition is any less valuable.
If you're more of a builder, here's a way to get a bunch of cool parts.
Granted, these sets aren't cheap, but that's another topic altogether.
Who loses in this scenario? Probably only people who currently sell sets
loose on eBay. I can see how sets without their original packaging could
become less valuable. These sellers will just have to keep their cool sets
and find a new source of revenue.
Jacob
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> But now we have the Legend series and I'm not glad about it at all. There have
> been some worth to read discussions (mainly Europeans against Americans) about
> the Guarded Inn and at this point we have the same effects concerning the
> trains. I think Jojo has said nearly all about what makes a set a legend and
> why a re-released legend is a dead legend:
> http://news.lugnet.com/castle/?n=9395
>
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
> want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
> rare sets.
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
In lugnet.trains, Jacob Arnold writes:
> I don't understand how re-releasing these sets is bad for anyone. If you're
> a collector, you'll want the original set with its original box. The Legends
> packaging is distinctly different from the original packaging. Also, many
> Lego pieces are manufactured slightly differently these days, so your
> original set will have smiley heads without holes in the top, plates without
> little holes in their bottom pegs, etc. The original sets are still rare and
> still collectible. Just because you can get a reproduction of an old comic
> book, it doesn't mean the first edition is any less valuable.
Absolutely right, Jacob. I got the Guarded Inn re-release, which means that I
can enjoy a very nice set without paying hundreds of dollars for it - and it
doesn't even affect the value of Guarded Inns /without/ the box, because there
are several pieces that are identifiably different.
> If you're more of a builder, here's a way to get a bunch of cool parts.
> Granted, these sets aren't cheap, but that's another topic altogether.
I was impressed that the Legends Guarded Inn was $25 - an excellent price to
piece ratio these days, and only a $5 increase over the initial price. I'll bet
the original would be more expensive in today's money if the dollars were
adjusted for inflation...
> Who loses in this scenario? Probably only people who currently sell sets
> loose on eBay.
Not even them. The canny collectors are going to know the differences between
the releases.
I can't see why .anyone. should be against the re-release the way they're doing
it. Nobody's hurt and a whole lot of people benefit.
J
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Ben,
I can't disagree with you more. I think rereleasing "legendary" sets is a great
idea. I just don't agree with the ones that Lego has chosen.
I hope that one day, as per Ole's vision, that a person will be able to go
online and pick ANY Lego model ever released, and will be able to get all the
necessary parts (modified for updated pieces, of course) and the instructions.
Further, I'd like to see the ability to design something in a program like
LDraw or one of the others, and then upload it to S@H to get all the parts
required for a reasonable price.
It seems like you're complaining because people in Europe stand to lose their
advantage over others elsewhere. European toy stores haven't until recently
practiced "stock balancing" as large discount stores elsewhere do. A toy store
might have purchased 10 of the 8880 Super Car seven years ago, and it has sold
all but two of them which are sitting on their shelves where they will sit
until they're sold, probably at a discount from the original price. Lego
enthusiasts from Europe KNOW that Americans want these old sets and will pay
two to three times what they're worth on eBay, AND foot the shipping bill as
well. I know several people in the US Armed Forces stationed in Germany and
Italy who do this and make a VERY tidy profit to supplement their meager wages.
And I think it's great. God bless capitalism!
But I also think it's great that I might at some point be able to buy an 8868
Airtech Claw Rig for less than the average US$300 it goes for on eBay, and be
able to get it domestically without having to pay a lot for international
shipping. Bring the Legends on! And collectors are NOT losing out. Collectors
know the difference between an original 6067 Guarded Inn and the 10000 Guarded
Inn Legends version. And if their customers don't, again, God bless capitalism!
I'm sure Lego is not going to pass up a chance to get some of that business
back, collectors be damned.
So enjoy it while you can. Things always change.
- Sean
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Reinhard "Ben" Beneke writes:
> As a matter of fact I have to declare: Lego® ist not only a toy, but also a
> collectors item. Many people collect sets (and pay lots of money for it).
> Others just need the parts for playing. Most of us do both: collect things and
> play with the stuff. I think TLC should take care of both groups: the "players"
> want to have stuff for MOCs easily available, the "collectors" want to have
> rare sets.
The collector mentality is nothing but Magpie-ism and pandering to it with
'rare' 'limited series' 'numbered editions' and other marketing goop is just
plain icky. A set that isn't torn down and built into something else is a
misfit toy. The legends are dead! Long live the Legends Series!
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
>
> The collector mentality is nothing but Magpie-ism and pandering to it with
> 'rare' 'limited series' 'numbered editions' and other marketing goop is just
> plain icky. A set that isn't torn down and built into something else is a
> misfit toy. The legends are dead! Long live the Legends Series!
Oh Really...magpie-ism...hmmm...what do you call the fact that people have
bought several multiple copies of the set? Sure some of the purchasers
will part out the set to build other things...or in the case of train, will
use the parts to build up their collection...others will simply buy the sets
to sell the sets on brickbay for exorbanent amounts of money....
I am not saying brickbay isn't all bad, but case in point.... before this
weekend vendors were selling new Club Cars for excess of $150, and used ones
for $75....
I don't buy Lego for the "numbers", I buy Lego for a specific set in mind...
so I don't care if the set is in the legends line-up or not...
to me the whole argument is really stupid....
just as much as people complaining how bad the printing was on the guarded
inn....who cares??? It's $25 for a set that has more than 100 pieces...I
doubt very many sets offered today could do that!!!!
My ultimate point is that instead of fighting over collectors vs enthusiasts,
everyone gets enough copies for their needs and makes all aware of the legends
(especially the non-Lugnet Lego enthusiasts)....and others who are thinking
about getting into Lego but find the "current line" repulsive....
Then get together, and discuss and push for certain bulk packs....I feel
the more the bulk selection, the closer we can get to better set
customization....a real key to creativity...
Benjamin Medinets
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
In lugnet.trains, Benjamin Medinets writes:
> the more the bulk selection, the closer we can get to better set
> customization....a real key to creativity...
Too true. I'd much prefer a huge line of accessory pack offerings and REAL
bulk offerings to legends sets any day. But, what are you going to do...? I
guess we get what we get, and that's all.
-- Hop-Frog
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
| |
|
Listen, All I know is that I cant wait to get my hands on two metroliners
and two club cars. I just want those four sets all for me and my collection.
No, i do not agree with people who resell the 10001 as a 4558 and a 10002 as
a 4547 and make a profit-thats just a rip off and a scam. No, i do not agree
with jerks who think they can resell a 10001 or a 10002 for over $300 soon
after they come out, thats just dumb. sure, where i come from we call it the
American Dream where you can make a profit on an item and make extra money
on the side, but if you want to make extra money from a set, resell that
item for a damn reasonable price. I know the origional Metroliner (4558) is
worth in the neighborhood of around $200-400 Mint In sealed box, but
anything over $400 is just a rip off. I would not pay over $200 for a
Metroliner, not that i dont have the money, but its just too much for a
train. As of the legends series,i think its great. Let Lego re-realease the
Metroliner in the origional colors and maybe down the road if we sign a
petition or request them to make another Metroliner 4 or 5 years from now
they'll re-realease the 10001 in a new color. Please email me at
razoredge442@aol.com with your suggestions, facts, or opinions on the new
10001 and 10002 and Ill post them up on my web page. the address is
HTTP://GNYLTC.HOMESTEAD.COM/CLUBINFORMATION.HTML
remember, your opinions and thoughts count. let them be heard. Joe Franco
| | | | | | |
