 | | TLG and "Seeding"
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This is my word for TLG's recent penchant for inserting random color bricks SW sets. Here's the excerpt from the FBTB site interview: (...) I'm referring to things like the green brick in >the Shuttle. (...) experience. We have learned over the (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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David: (...) It is done in all kinds of sets. And it has happened for quite some time. While you are right that kids generally don't care much about the colours (neither do I for first generation models), they certainly grow more experienced and try (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I really don't believe, given the specific wording of the interview answer, that the extraneous colours are inserted to add variety. I'd wager that they're put into sets where they are as 'placeholders', so as to make it easier to assemble the (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) But the discussion was not about MOCs...it was about building instructions for a specific design. Personally, I am inclined to trust that the thousands of hours of research that the TLG has done over the many years has given them a solid (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I agree with this completely. Clear, detailed, and simple instructions provide only a single path for one's building to follow; in no way do they curtail creative exploration of other possibilities. If anyone finds that current instructions (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Jake, with all due respect, what models are you refering to? The models of 10, 15, or 20 years ago were far superior in terms of realism, details, and attractiveness. Yesteryear: Garage Doors Today: No garage doors Yesteryear: Cars with doors (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) My experience as a child was just the opposite. I always had too many colors and not enough of the same colors. That made me want to buy more sets, of course...and it still does. Marketing, marketing, marketing. (...) LOL...Yeah, right. Who do (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I'm willing to trust that the thousands of hours of Market Research that TLC has done over the many years has given them a solid understanding of the best way to create demand for more pieces and more sets. --Todd (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I have to agree with James wholeheartedly, on pretty much every point he makes. Were some of the alternate models on old sets difficult to make? Yes, but that was part of their appeal! It was a challenge! It felt great to show the picture and (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) **snip** (...) James has identified a fundamental problem facing LEGO in the current and future market. We're all aware (and some of us are great fans) of competitors in the construction toy market, at least one of which has made great strides (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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I have often criticized the past several years of set designs in vague terms such as "poor design values". I think I've finally found the words to clarify exactly what I don't like. Current set designs, with the notable exception of the Star Wars (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Point taken, but I will also trust the time I've spent observing my kids build sets by the instructions. The other color parts HELP that process. Personally I'd rather that they used wilder colors (why, in a grey model, use a blue 2x2 spotter (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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I think the marketing department needs some help. Every time I hear "our market testing shows that kids and parents want juniorization" I am amazed at how large the gap between marketing and reality is. Parents and kids want the exact same things (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.lego.direct)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) What alternative images? Other than Star Wars and Technic, it doesn't seem like any sets have alternate models any more. And the Star Wars alternates seem invariably ... umm ... goofy. Steve (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Old alternate images used to suggest ways to build other things with the set pieces; Star Wars "alternates" only show ways to deconstuct the set. I will say, however, that the alternate models at the end of some of the larger set instructions (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | observations @ KB toys (was: Re: TLG and "Seeding")
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(...) I have been an assistant Mangager at a KB Toy store for about a month and a half now. I can tell everyone first hand that TLC's market reasearch is totally incorect. (I have been memorizing customers interested in Lego since I started. I was (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general) !!
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) For goofy... Jake, has Tomas showed you his desktop wallpaper? :) The old Fabuland set with an elephant and a wheelbarrow, and the alternate model is the elephant holding the wheelbarrow while the wheelbarrow is standing on end - the elephant (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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Posting this again, I wrote it before but for some reason it didn't show up. James, I agree 100% with what you said here. I think this is pretty sad. I believe in the LEGO system of play strongly, I just wish LEGO believed in it too. -Tim (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Exactly!
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Thank you James, for bringing out this point. I couldn't have summed it up better. Dave James Simpson <jsimpson@rice.edu> wrote in message news:G9H1y8.M06@lugnet.com... (...) of 10, (...) almost (...) since the (...) compare (...) the (...) range of (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Are you sure about that? Since this thread goes on .starwars, lets take the X-Wing as an example. Could such a realistic looking X-Wing be constructed with the part selection as of 15 or 20 year ago? I would say probably not. The fairly new (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I don't want to sound too personally critical, but are you being serious? Sets like King Leo's Castle are more sophisticated than things like King's Castle? Or how about the 1998 Cargo Center compared to the 1984 model? And as for idea books, (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) In this discussion the Star Wars sets have been generally regarded as exceptions to the rule. Your 673 example is more on target but still overlooks the dreadful state of design in more recent Lego sets. Compare, for example, set (URL) from (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Indeed. Outside of the minifig, it it not that great. Both of them really lack the entusiasm as the 1980's early sets. (...) Town Junior has some good parts, which can make for better MOC's, Chris Leach does a good job, among others. I think (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Heh! That's along the same lines as "change is good," as espoused by those in the corporate world who decide to implement changes but who will not themselves be affected by them in any way. Dave! (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Ugh! I have been forced to buy them because I wanted to get the ball-and-socket joint where the ball has an axle hole instead of a throwbot/bionicle leg attached to it. I was complaining loudly about how foetid the sets were and how I felt bad (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Granted, SW is a bird of a different feather. We're all well aware that it's by and large a return to old-school construction. Two points on this matter: 1) The X-Wing pretty much required new elements (engines, canopy, perhaps wings). Had it (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Er, make that it *would* have smacked of quality. (that's what I get for feverishly typing a message before my boss returns) james (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I agree with your points here, but I would still say that the 6407, being a Town Jr set, is aimed at a different crowd than the 672. That makes them difficult to compare. It's a bit like comparing a Duplo set with a System set. Not quite, but (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I'd say that comparing 6407 to 672 is comparing 2 sets that were marketed to the same demographic group a generation apart. All things being equal, the newer set is less satisfactory because it does not make good use of two-decades worth of (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Well said. Let's review: Someone asked about seeding or using "spotter" parts, questioning the accuracy and or legitimacy of the explanation given by TLC (which explanation, I reiterate, I agree with as being accurate and legitimate. I have (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Good point, but the 602 would probably retail for $2.99, vs. $4.95 for the 6407. At the same time, using the "standard" of about a dime per piece, the 672 would come in at about six bucks, even with the ladder, and that's essentially the same (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I would be a fool to say I know this for sure, but I would say that Town Jr is marketed to kids younger than the 672 was, while some of the other playthemes (such as Req-Q and Ninjas and what not) are marketed towards roughly the same age (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I for one have no problem getting spotter parts if they are tactfully concealed within the model and don't detract from the design. No bashing from these quarter. That said, Jake voiced opinions (that were not limited to spotting) which I (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Well spoken, James. Clearly I support LEGO in that I buy their product. If I *truly* wanted to bash TLC, I would simply cease to buy any modern LEGO set... an option that I would find frighteningly easy to excercise. My LEGO budget can easily (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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In lugnet.general, James Simpson writes: <snipped well taken points> (...) Or for sticking up for it when it's unfairly maligned, for that matter. OK, here's a question to the audience, then... which group is a good one for discussing the theory of (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Let's duke it out in the .primo group--it doesn't see a lot of traffic. 8^) Dave! (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) And so you should. As should we all, and as *do* we all, or most of us. I just don't see the value in Standard Product Rants like this particular Town Jr. one, at least not on the 99th repetition. (granted, the retail anecdotes are new (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) There will always be new users who have not participated in the rant before. Gived that it is something of an Accepted Truth that older models had better parts selection, better design qualities, etc- especially in the area of Town- its a rant (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) True, though part of his assertion was that the alternate models have become more sophisticated, which I take to mean that the designs have become more elaborate, which in general they have not. Your point about the broader palette is correct, (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I was just going to let this thread pass on by like so many other TLC-bashing threads, but your comments here rang the proverbial bell in my mind. As a kid (somewhere between 9 and 12 years old) I used to have a friend that would come over and (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) TLC makes the same amount of money on a set you buy from the discount bin as they do on a set you buy off the shelves of the same store the day it first comes in. What buying from the discount bins *does* do, on the other hand, is send the (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Agreed! (...) Ya, I meant it in juxtaposition with the comment to which it was replying...i.e., that I belive the reason for the off-color elements is more driven by marketing/costs/etc. than by ease of building. I've seen 2x2 red plates stuck (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) No no, it's the monkey that's up in midair on the wheelbarrow: (URL) elephant is taking a bath in his umbrella: (URL) be fair to Fabuland, those aren't really alternate models, more like "possible story/play scenarios." Very goofy scenarios. (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Ohh...you got me there. Thanks for clarifying and making that very important correction. ;-) Those are funny pictures! -Tim (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.fabuland)
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| | Clarification, and another point
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Wow, quite a thread from my original post. Aaaah, intelligent mature discussion, I love this group! I think what I was trying to get at was that TLG claims that the sets are easier to assemble since many of the pieces which are not the same color as (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Yes and No. I'm not sure how much the store's Corporate office watches a particular set (unless it proves to be extremely unpopular). I'm of the opinion that the corporate buyers are watching the overall performance of: 1) Lego products, 2) a (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Larry (et. al), sorry to take so long to get back to this thread. I have been in all day meetings. Yes, that was exactly my point. I truly apologize for kicking off Standard Rant #1 (Town Jr. discussion). I really would like to discuss this (...) (23 years ago, 28-Feb-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: Clarification, and another point
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(...) They still use this technique in big technic sets (not that there's many new ones of those) like the 8448. It helps a lot in these models. ROSCO (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: Clarification, and another point
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(...) AND Model Team... the latter uses both the individual parts illustrations and spotter bricks where needed, as well as subassembly drawings. (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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Actually, that's not always true. I've always attempted to make my models both colour coordinated and colour symmetric. Back to when I was playing with Duplo. I've been talking to a friend about this recently and he also did this and, like me, gotr (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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well, i usually let this theme slide on by as it shows up so often and is always the same old debate, however... this time, i would like to say for the record can you really look @ some of the MOCs out there and complain about the pieces TLC is (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars, lugnet.space)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Actually, what I meant was... Who does this particular quoted marketing and/or PR person think they're fooling? Does this particular LEGO employee think LEGO fans are idiots? Why else the stock answer? --Todd (not implying that spotter bricks (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Thanks for clearing this up. I would tend to agree that using the spotter brick explanation to explain the wacky color changes on the *outside* of a lot of recent sets (e.g. the Imperial Shuttle(tm), what's wrong with either white or gray??? (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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I've rearranged some of the remarks by Dave and James to separate the topics that they cover. I've tried to preserve context and not misrepresent their positions. (...) **unsnipping to deliver more context** (...) **snip** (...) Dave, I'm glad you (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars, lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Since I was the one who leveled that accusation, I'll step up to the plate. The problem comes not from your expression of your own ideas, nor from your professional expression of TLC's ideas, but rather from an apparent inconsistency in (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) You're telling me that you can use a 16x8x8 western-style shack in your space model? You're crazy! And that huge octagonal dome can be used in all sorts of huge octagonal dome structures! (...) This is generally true, but the same can be said (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I looked at the picture and thought it was a "monkey bars" alternate model that the monkey was using for some excercise/play. Considering the number of pieces, I think it's a legitimate alternate :) -- Thomas Main main@appstate.edu (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.fabuland)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I must disagree with you here... though I don't use clone brands currently, the highest quality clones I've seen date back to the 80s... I received a bucket of Tyco Superblocks as a birthday present when I was a kid. The quality of those (...) (23 years ago, 1-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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In lugnet.general, David Zorn writes a worthy exposition of things clone related. As Dave Shuler commented (see other also worthy reply) its a trade-off - for less money I can do more stuff I enjoy. I'm sold. I can't speak to clones other than (...) (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Help me out: was that last bit straight or ironic? Steve (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Were those my only two choices? :-) I didn't find it all that hard to parse, it is only at [not level]2.. I've seen Todd do 5 or 6 without breaking a sweat, and he's wasn't even BORN in Boston. FUT o-t.fun unless you weren't being funny, in (...) (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Hey! I resemble that remark! Eric Kingsley (Boston, born and raised) (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Yea, Todd's done a pretty good job of adapting and learning to "speak the language very well" (1) (1) Extremely obscure Boston (well, actually Cambridge, got to get your cities straight, can't have hoity toity folks from certain universities (...) (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Language (was: Re: TLG and "Seeding")
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(...) In fact, I've been known to comment that we drawl our Rs around here to make up for the fact that y'all don't say yours. :) -JDF (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Actually, this explanation makes a lot of sense. I was recently looking at the instructions for the Millenium Falcon, which inexplicably uses a few odd-colored bricks at various points, pondering this very issue. Then I remembered building the (...) (23 years ago, 2-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I'm guessing you turn 38 tomorrow (based on when you got your first degree from RPI). As for the quote I don't have a clue what you are talking about. If the quote stood alone I would think it was a Bushism! Happy Birthday, Maggie C. (23 years ago, 3-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I've been noticing a lot of MegaBlock sets that actually look pretty good, and I find myself saying to myself, "I wish that was Lego". MB has battleships and helicopters and other IMO fun sets while Lego puts out obscure themes such as "Life (...) (23 years ago, 3-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars, lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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My first observation of seeding was in the Roboforce 2152 Robo Raptor. It had, I believe, a red or yellow 2x4 brick in the middle, not visible from the outside. After building it, I remember feeling that is was so cool that I knew there was that (...) (23 years ago, 4-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) This (...) I had the exact same experience myself, and actually had to tear mine down a bit to correct some mistakes. It was a little frustrating, but still part of the challenge. My issue is that this problem could be easily remedied by (...) (23 years ago, 4-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Kinda like the "black box" in set 4561, the Railway Express? Except the black box is only sort of hidden -- it's meant to be exposable, but if one didn't know it was there, one wouldn't look for it. Steve (23 years ago, 5-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Ah, thanks. That explains it. Steve (23 years ago, 5-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Run the 4561 off a 3' high table, and you'll expose the "black box" then :) jt (23 years ago, 5-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding" (Lego and MB compared)
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(...) I'll second that. It takes a little bit more pressure to put two MBs together and a little bit more effort to pull them apart. I notice that my thumbs are always a little tender after a long MB session. I notice that although I keep my MBs (...) (23 years ago, 6-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding" (Lego and MB compared)
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(...) Wow, that was all very well stated and quite accurate to my mind. The price differences at full retail are about the same in the U.S. BTW, and not all of us have access to the same level of sale prices as do some Lugnuts. Most of the time a (...) (23 years ago, 6-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands)
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| | Re: (Lego and MB compared)
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In lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands, Kerry Raymond writes a wonderfully rich review of the MB ProBuilder line: (...) Interesting. This has to be a new phenomenon. The last MB set I bought Creature Seekers Naval Command had numerous parts that kept (...) (23 years ago, 6-Mar-01, to lugnet.off-topic.clone-brands)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I agree with the explanation too. Have you noticed how a lot of kids jumped on the K'nex system, but not Lego's own Znap? The big difference was that K'nex colour-coded the function of each element. There were no duplications of the same piece (...) (23 years ago, 11-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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On Sun, 11 Mar 2001, Jason J. Railton (<GA16vs.2CB@lugnet.com>) wrote at 11:35:52 (...) This is quite an interesting point, and perhaps another explanation for the proliferation of POOPs. If you've already used a black 2x4, and you need a stack of (...) (23 years ago, 11-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) Perhaps its time for a 'random surprise bucket', you get 2 lbs of parts, no two buckets the same. No instructions. The 'Jackson Pollock'[1] style of set/MOC layout. (...) Same concept, taken differently: large sets that do have the same parts (...) (23 years ago, 11-Mar-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I suspect that this was a packaging idea which was developed with the possibility of other highway sets. If they come out with other sets, then they can just include the appropriate number of support tower bags. The other possibility is that (...) (23 years ago, 12-Mar-01, to lugnet.general)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) I 'seeded' the interior of the _Radiant VII_ I built today with blue and yellow so I wouldn't run out of red for the exterior! Not really a bad strategy for large creations. (...) The MegaBlocks Tyrannosaurus sculpture (and all their other (...) (23 years ago, 12-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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| | Re: TLG and "Seeding"
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(...) They used to use such a system. See, for example, (URL) new pieces are noticeably darker than the old pieces. TWS Garrison (23 years ago, 12-Mar-01, to lugnet.general, lugnet.starwars)
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