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(...) I know this ever-so-rarely ever happens, but I think I'm going to switch gears and join your team on this one, based on something that struck me after writing this post: (URL) that the Biblical Creation story *does* have evidence to support (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Once again I have to reiterate--there are many knowledgable and well learned folks partaking in these debates. Thanks for the intriguing posts. I uphold a system in which Larry can believe what he chooses to believe, as I uphold a system in (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Absolutely. If the universe is cyclic, then simply everything collapsed back into as small of a point as possible until the big bang was triggered. An interesting question would be if the physical laws of the universe change from one (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) [note: I have no idea what the "Christian Churches of God" are or what they may or may not believe in addition to the stuff referenced below (it wouldn't surprise me to discover they were a white supremacist christian identity movement, many (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I too wonder about this. I've heard that bandied about for years, but haven't seen any real accounts of it. I would like to read an account of this occurance. Chris (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Hasn't it ever been "shared" with you before? I don't believe in any god because there is not a reasonable body of evidence to support such belief. When you've been deeply indoctrinated, or when the Lord has whispered into your heart, you (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Also, fish aren't fish. There is no class, subclass, order, family, genus, or species known as "fish." What we know colloquially as fish are in fact four (maybe five now) classes of vertebrates that happen to all share certain features that (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Where did you read that this was an indictment of your intentions regarding cultures? I was making a general point about the problems with the terminology *that is used in the field*, and you're accusing me of something totally out of left (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) There are actual groups of people for lack of a better term, we'll call a tribe, who having no technology beyond stone tool making and limited agriculture fall into a social development known as the Stone Age. These cultures have been having (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) There are actual groups of people for lack of a better term, we'll call a tribe, who having no technology beyond stone tool making and limited agriculture fall into a social development known as the Stone Age. These cultures have been having (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) It is not possible to meaningfully talk about events prior to the big bang (1) at this time. Period. With or without religion. (except in the negative sense of saying that we can't talk about them as we have no frame of reference and no way to (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) And you in turn would be mistaken to think I had done so. I've studied the whole bible (and read a fair bit elsewhence) not just that one particular OT book. It's just that Job sums up your god quite nicely for me. Most of the rest is smoke or (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) The big problem with it has little to do with the "emotional distress" it supposedly places on people (I said nothing about this, so I'm not sure where you got it from). It has to do with the fallacious logic that the creation of this linear (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Would you say that it is possible to talk about events prior to the big bang without referring to religion? -John (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) His intentions are not lost on me, but I'd rather let him be hoisted by his own petard. He can impugn his character much better than I ever could. -John (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I choose the *perception* that He is a tinpot dictator of a god, which is a misperception. God is unchanging, and God's true nature was revealed by Jesus life and teachings. Since that nature is that of a loving and just God, this is how I (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) I don't think what makes a theory scientific is as hard and fast as some would like to indicate. Does it have to "helpful" to be scientific? Why would it have to? (...) Basically, Creationist Theories don't fit the known evidence. (...) (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Of course a fish is still a fish. I mean, what else would it be? If you are trying to state (but not quite saying it) that a fish can never evolve into another species, that's easy to answer: yes it can. I think you are really trying to say it (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I judge the nature of your god by the evidence presented. The ends do not justify the means, and there is no possible justification for your god's persistent torture of Job. If the bible is revealed truth, your god isn't a very good (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Wrong! You miss the point. The author of Job *doesn't* know the true nature of God. I happen to appreciate the honesty of the Biblical redactors to include the book of Job. The revelation of the nature God to the Israelites was a *process*, (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) A creator is not a theory. It fails the falsifyability test. You seem not to understand this... (...) The evidence indicates support for the Big Bang (I think that's a misnomer in modern terminology, but OK...) and as Dave! is relating quite (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) You've lost me. To what idol are you referring? (...) Jesus Himself deviates from the Passover rite. He instituted a new one during the old one (the oldest rite that is still observed today, AFAIK). Jesus *IS* the pascal lamb. The blood of (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Ya, me too. Of course, I may have read a different version than you... in my view Job should never have been allowed to remain in the bible as it spells things out quite clearly for those paying attention. It reveals the true nature of the (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I had no idea that Stone Age was an unpc term. I must update my civilization terminolgy lexicon. Mabye metallurgically challenged? Not preferring alloys? Archae/anthro 'gists have been the worst ambassadors and tomb raiders since recorded (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I'm OK with that so far as it goes... Tribes in the stone age ARE less developed. And I am perfectly OK characterising my life (and my society) as "better" than theirs. We have LEGO(r). They don't. QED. Next! ++Lar (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes: Richard, please stop baiting John. (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Careful, your (non classical) liberal education is causing you to use loaded words... that they happen not to be correct is an added bonus for those keeping score at home. (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) That may be true, but I wonder: When evolution is taught in schools, is it preceded by the topic "origin of the universe"? That seems logical to me, and I'd be willing to bet that Big Bang garners all of the press (to the exclusion of (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) It could be seen as a kind of idolatry. But it also suggests that your faith is whatever you think it should be. I am not seeing any citations or authorities for the practice of either Xmas or Easter here, John. (...) As performed during a (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Okay, but it's still not scientific. My claim that I just came back from the men's room is falsifiable, but that's not really scientific, either. (...) The flood story? the GLOBAL flood story? Not hardly. And anecdotal examples of failures of (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Of course. Job is a very interesting book that attempts to honestly deal with the question of why bad things happen to good people. In a way, it is a revolt against the notion of obedience = blessings and the reverse. ILR, sometimes the (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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worst thread ever. -c ps. i mean this is a good way... seriously, this is one of the most amazing debates ever. :) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Because "tribes in the stone age" is a severe value judgement. It implies that they exist along a continuum that has us at the "good" end and them at the "primitive" or less developed end. That's the core of development theory. And it's (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) And Job too? (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I think it's irrelevant who started it. The incarnation of God is a pretty special event, to say the least. To argue that it is somehow wrong to celebrate Jesus' birth without a written command to do so is specious. (...) Sorry. *THAT* is (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) thanks for clarifying to me that I'm not a racist there, I was wondering about that for awhile now, nice for you to set me straight. As far as it being a useless point out of context, I was replying to a statement that dolphins could not see (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Well, the point on this one was that I think Dave! insinuated that in order for a theory to be 'scientific', one requirement was that the theory must be able to make predictions. And I disagreed with that assertion. That's where this one was (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) rather than 1/3 which is I think what I heard the stat as... sorry 'bout that one... DaveE (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) (probably should clarify--I'm not calling you racist, but calling the example one that's generated by racist hierarchy and totally useless in the context.) -LFB (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I call "bullhockey." Citation, please. This just screams residual imperial mentality and the racist anthropology of the pre-WWI era--and the fact that you use it to make a point about nonhumans is extremely problematic. best LFB (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Ya know, I think that's the most succinctly phrased understatement I've heard in a long time. thanks James (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Well, people have been saying that all along!!!! What took you so long? Science in general has nothing to say about faith based beliefs other than "they are outside the purview of science". You can't use science to prove or disprove them. But (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Who exactly is "whomever" and why do you believe in the things they may have stated? How or why does whomever's views supersede the red letter words of Jesus? (...) I think "communion" is another man's creation. Jesus kept the Passover. If you (...) (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Chris (22 years ago, 12-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) But no one said that about evolution. I don't even thing that anyone asserted that about science. I happen to not believe in any kind god-stuff, but that has nothing to do with the topic. Even if I did, it would still be clear that evolution (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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When anthropologists encountered stone age tribes in Africa they exposed them to many objects of the industrial world including pictures. They didn't perceive them as a representative image, let alone the object they were depicting. To expose a (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Yep, thank you for clarifying that for the audience. I suppose I could have emphasized the term "scientific" rather than "valid", but it seems perfectly clear to me the way I originally wrote it. I don't oppose the teaching of creationism, I (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I should clarify. When it was decided by whomever to celebrate the birth of Jesus, the day of the year with the shortest amount of light was chosen (the winter solstice) which also happened to be a day which the pagans celebrated as well. (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) I cited one aspect of the Big Bang, that's all. You usually have some kind of evidence, contruct a model, and then see if you can find new evidence to confirm or deny the theory. I spoke from the standpoint of the model, not the actual linear (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) <goad> Well, it's because the other 33% are Hindus and Jews, and the rest aren't really humans. </goad> The figure is closer to 30-35%, by the way. (URL) best LFB (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) To clear up after reading my post and realizing that I didn't complete this thought--I was thanking James for his well worded response. It was shown to me thusly (trashing God) in parts of this debate and I appreciate his efforts to clear it (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Now this is refreshing--'The theory of Evolution' and saying that it has nothing to do with the plausibility of God. For the record, I believe the world to be millions of years old. I believe the universe to be even older. I believe that there (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) "wrong":-) (...) Truly I wasn't offended, just giving you a hard time, although I did think you were being intentional. (...) Really? :-) (...) Easy there. I really think there are valid points to my argument-- I *do* believe in separation of (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Really? Now, I'd call them both rational (==logical?) decisions, there's just less support for the 2nd as opposed to the 1st. IE I'd be "less sure" of the 2nd assumption than the 1st. Which is really how I feel about Creationism. It's not that (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Traditional to whom John -- pagan Xtians? Christ was a jew that told you to practice the Passover. Do you practice the Passover? This just shows the height of your madness, as usual. Please do not respond to my posts. It's not a troll to show (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) [snip] (...) Well, there are only three organisms that routinely recognize individual identity through graphic representations and the notion of self as tested with a mirror. Dolphins aren't one of them. We are. Obviously there is yet much to (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Once again, the difference between species isn't something magical, or even obvious. It's (usually) merely a matter of reproductive capacity. There are many, many examples of two species that are so similar that only recently have scientists (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Seriously? Where'd you get that stat? Chris (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Let me play off this idea for a minute... The problem with faith-based assertions in a category like debate is that it tends to operate as a trump card of a kind. Faith-based assertions are not logical -- they skip over such a concern and go (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) What's the "W" word? "Dubya" ?? We don't use *that* word in our house if we can help it... (1) :-) (unfortunately there's nothing funny about that man. Our last halfway decent prez was Ronnie, since then we've had a succession of duds.. and he (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) <...> (...) <...> (...) Dave, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what evolutionary theory is. I would encourage you to step back from the evolution:creation debate, and try and look at the theory of evolution from within a (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I think you are confusing it with the pagan celebration of the winter solstice (Christmas was traditionally celebrated on the day when there was the least amount of light-- in the northern hemisphere:-)-- as the day when the light came into (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) In fact, the coelecanth *has* undergone further change. Genus Latimera is unknown in the fossil record; it is *a* coelecanth, but there are many, many types. A few of the changes that have happened to the coelecanth since the end of the (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) These are two really different things. For the record, Christmas is not a Christian holy day -- it is a pagan holiday. Some of its practices are even condemned in as ancient a text as the book of Jeremiah (probably as idolatry): ~~~...~~~ 10:2 (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Yes;-) I know you, Lar, and I know that you *deliberately* didn't capitalize "Christmas". One's personal feelings about religions, etc, are irrelevant to grammar, unless someone is trying to make something of it as you were in your own little (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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I think from the whole tone of the subsequent discussion that I should have put smileys everywhere. I was originally going for the humourous ribbing--wink wink nudge nudhge--who really cares--i mean, take a look at the last line I put about (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Rational: After repeated trials eliminating as many external variables as possible, it is apparent that penicillin has a positive medicinal effect on the disease tuberculosis Intuitive: I slept with the window open, and my tuberculosis (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) False. Evolution describes the changes to fit the environment (simplifying greatly). If the Ceolacanth evolved to the point *where it succeeded in its' environment*, it doesn't necessarily have to change any more to fit Evolutionary Theory. (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Well, that's not the part that's falsifiable. And, I agree-- if we take the absolutemost non-literal translation of the Bible and say 1 day = 8.6 billion years or what-have-you, then yes, you're right, it may *not* be falsifiable. Certainly (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) But I could say the same about the existence of an infinite Being. <snipping here> (...) This is because science is using a loaded bat (to continue the metaphor). The presuppositions of science are that if you can't test it, observe it, (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Once again, the difference is jumping species. Whether it's 2 years or 2 thousand years, or 2 million years, a fish is still a fish. Sure, it adapted over the course of those millions of years to climate changes, grew a new fin to help it (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) You have misidentified me, sir. I do not find it vexing in the least when people omit the (tm) on things. I personally could care less about the entire matter, except for the slight fact that I have trademarks that I have invested effort in (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) I think you reversed the prediction with the evidence. The evidence was (IIRC) that galaxies are all moving away from each other, and the *conclusion* was that the Big Bang happened. There is no "Therefore, BECAUSE the Big Bang happened, X". (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) BTW, it's bugging me that people haven't detailed the fish yet, just because I used to follow the info on it closely. It was just in the last decade or so that they've caught LIVE ones for scientists. For the longest time, they were just (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I dunno if I'd go so far as to distinguish these two methods of reasoning as much as you'd like to... Could you give me an utterly basic example of each? (...) Ah-- so here's the clutch. Your argument is that your reasoning is superior to (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) What? Of course the Big Bang theory makes predictions. Virtually any model makes predictions. You then see if observable data matches the predictions - in the case of the Big Bang, are galaxies (or more properly galactic groupings) moving away (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Actually, no it's not. At least, not Christian Creationism, which is really what we're talking about. The presence of an omnipotent being by definition eliminates all falsifiability or empirical verification--two necessary criteria for a (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) "Micro-evolution" and "macro-evolution" are creationist terms, not terms used by scientists. That should tell you something right away. Further, in evolution, what you would call "macro-evolution" is nothing more than "micro-evolution" over a (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Well, don't condemn me for the assumptions *you're* making. Here's a restatement: A: Rational reasoning is based on experience and observation of verifiable evidence B: Intuitive reasoning is based on feelings and impressions independent of (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) It wasn't specifically the (tm) issue I was referring to. As one of the people who find it vexing when folks wrongly leave off the (tm) off things that should have the (tm), you should (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) <pedant> Doing so is presumably taking a position on the whole religion thang (albiet a pretty mild expression thereof), and of course your right to free expression and all that jazz. But Dave is still correct in that Christmas is a proper (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes: Well, super. After I climb all the way up onto my high horse someone comes along with a polite and articulate post (and he's Canadian, of all things!) Some great points follow: (...) "Missing link" (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes: <snippety snip> (...) I'm OK with that view! (does that come as a shock to anyone???) Reason is our evolutionary advantage. If you can't or won't reason, you're repudiating your humanity. I'm an (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Mabye this seems cold but I feel that this has to do with continuity of the species. Maternal instinct is found in many species to varying degree, as is monogamous relationships. Monogany helps assures fidelity, security and assures the (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) No it wouldn't, but it would be incorrect in my view, when referring to things that happened around that time. We don't celebrate the christian christmas. (...) It's not a trademarked name. Unlike Father's Day(tm) which Hallmark(tm) invented. (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Disagree-- but you won't like the answer. (...) Sure it is. It's just that *IF* most Creationists were presented with conflicting data, they'd choose to ignore or dismiss it. Just like you ignore or dismiss the Bible as evidence against (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) But would it kill ya to put a Capital C on Christmas? I mean, being the (tm) truant for LUGNET(tm) and Guild of Bricksmiths(tm), you, Larry, of all people, should realize the vexing incurred by those that read something like that. Think of it (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Very well thought out and written, Dave! A few of my thoughts and ideas (that I can guarantee won't be as thought out nor in any sense a coherent order)... I find that there are fellow Christians out there who *have* to hit others over the (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Creationism
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(...) Well, you're making several different points here, so let's take them one by one; First off, John R's not saying Creationism isn't "valid;" he's saying that it's not a "valid scientific theory," and he's 100% correct. Creationism is not (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Hey, you're the winner, J-1, and for your prize, you get the white elephant *I* got "stuck" with at my last such gift exchange during Christmas last year-- a sculpted dog on his back/invisible tape dispencer:-) -John (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Isn't accusing someone of using "falacious logic" an insult to their person? IE assuming they're a lesser one? I think the assumption you're making is that "I would *never* come to that conclusion, but you would, and that conclusion is (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) Only in part. I was partly refering to the trend to dismiss faith-based arguments, but I was more speaking to the further dismissal of anyone bringing forward faith-based arguments. John (Neal)'s borne the recent brunt of this, but he's by no (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) Yes, that's what he indicated to me offline. My immediate family only celebrates the secular traditions that exist and are celebrated at that time of year, and "winter solstice celebration" is a bit too hard to type. :-) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: slight
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(...) I'm guessing Mr. Neal is referring to the non-capitalization of "Christmas"... (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I'm one of those people, so I'll offer something of an explanation. It's not that we (allow me to presume to speak for others who share my view on this) think an anti-evolutionist is a lesser *person,* but it is almost invariably the case that (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I think this is the attitude that James B. was referring to. Let me ask you, what's not "valid" about Creationism? I don't think 'science' can or will be able to disprove it-- although I don't doubt that it will find mounds more evidence to (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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(...) Dang, I think ya got me there, finally. Bruce :-) (Dubya only hurts when I smile....and frown...and grimmace...and....) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) I don't have a problem if someone believes in a higher power, wants to attend a church, etc. This is America and you have that personal right. I DO have a problem when lawmakers in Ohio try to push their religious views into public school (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) That's basically the conclusion that I came to. When someone asks "well then where did the universe and all this stuff come from?", I reply "Can you phrase that question without invoking within it concepts of spacetime itself?" (i.e. cause & (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Evolution vs Scientific Creationism
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(...) my bad and duly noted. I did say in that post 'The intial spark of life is debatable too' which I really should have clarified at the beginning as well. Your explanation as to how evolution does not get involved into that murky area is great, (...) (22 years ago, 11-Jul-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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