Subject:
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Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:28:36 GMT
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Viewed:
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628 times
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<snip>
> Oh, I'm not arguing against the minimum incriment! My point is that its a very
> seductive trap that e-bay uses (and most auctions, to be fair) to get more
> money out of the marks. Most people, everytime they're outbid, they think
> "only 1 more dollar", and either consciously or unconsciously edit out the
> price the lot has already reached, which tends to pull the price they are
> paying beyond what they are (were) willing to pay.
And that I have no explanation for. I agree 100%, but I cannot explain
this "seduction", nor why it happens to some people and not others.
<snip>
> > In the long run, it adds up. 5-10% is diddly, I agree. 20% and above
> > for the lego I sell means "buy (at most) five, get 1 free" with what
> > I've earned, in relation to RTL/Lugnet. Combine that with the minimal
> > effort involved in running an auction on eBay, and to me, that's
> > significant.
> >
> > > it pulls money out of the AFOL community - how much of that 20 bucks goes to
> > > e-bay for listing fees and percentage of high bid?
> >
> > Pulls money out? Whether I buy and sell lego on eBay or RTL/Lugnet,
> > that does not change my AFOL status. Someone argued a couple of months
> > back that while commerce isn't the main point of RTL/Lugnet, it does
> > facilitate the life of them. I think that's true, but I also offer that
> > the "location" of that commerce is irrelevant to the Lego community--the
> > community still gathers to talk about stuff in the same place.
>
> I was not remotely implying that you are not part of the Lego community! I was
> stating that e-bay is not part of the Lego community. That 2% every time
> effectively never comes back in. (barring complicated theories of market ebb
> and flow)
I understand (and thank you! :) but if using an external auction
service is detrimental to the lego community, and I am using an external
auction service, then that implies that I am detrimental to the lego
community. This is an important implication. I'm not taking that
personally; just defining what this idea leads to.
<snipped a bunch of stuff that led to and was reiterated in the main
point>
> The RTL and Lugnet community is a fairly close-knit community, of (generally
> speaking) intelligent, reasonable adults who have a single hobby in common.
> To me, that such a thing exists at all is enough reason to not go outside of
> it. When someone from that community sells/auctions a set outside that
> community, I feel the community as a whole loses out. Yes, the individual gets
> a better return, which then gets put back in (albiet indirectly), but to me,
> that benefit is outweighed.
I don't see how the community loses out with the "export" of lego. More
on that later on down.
> First, prices on e-bay are higher, and that inflates the price of non-retail
> Lego beyond what the community sees the value as being. That means that we all
> "pay" extra every time a set gets more 'valuable'. Inflation is inevitable,
> but it should be related to availability, not to profit. ( I realize that I am
> arguing an ideal)
I agree with your ideal completely, but I don't think that availability
is waning. And lego already costs too much off the shelf, and it doesn't
get any better from there. The ability to "buy" one's way into lego is
becoming more difficult to do, but because lego prices have gone up
evenly across the board, those who are already in haven't lost anything.
More importantly, there were so many "casual" lego purchases made in the
history of lego (meaning quantity of people who picked up a set here and
there vs. quantity of serious lego builders) that there are sets and
pieces hiding in basements, closets, attics, etc., and so the
opportunity to "work" one's way in by scouring garage sales, auctions,
etc., is still very much alive. That's how I got in, and how I continue
to grow my collection.
> Second, every time someone not part of the Lego community buys a set, it
> effectively disappears forever. So each time a set is sold outside the
> community, that set becomes harder to find, and the price goes up. Again, we
> all pay.
If the availability of lego were limited, I'd agree with that. But
there's too much lego. The Yellow Castle is supposed to be one of the
"holy grails" of castle lego collectors. Five of them have sold on eBay
in the last two months. To be sure, some sets are much harder to find
and are "worth" a lot more than others, but I think that for every
"export" comes a garage sale find.
> Third, while you get a better return (say 20%), only 18% of that return 'stays'
> in the community - the other 2% is effectively lost into the general economy,
> and it never comes back.
And if that 18% is used for non-lego purposes, it's all gone. But then,
that's one less buyer to push up the price of lego. I don't think the
"economics" of what happens with "lego money" warrant the idea that
"exporting" lego from the community is detrimental.
> Fourth, if a set is sold 'outside' the community, then we never know what gets
> done with it - there is never any feedback - no website, no newsgroup
> discussion sparked by someone finding a great set, nothing. Again, we lose
> out, and this is arguably a more significant lose than the money part of the
> equation.
I don't think there is a link between legonomics and community, other
than providing a "current" of commerce as a mutual meeting ground, the
"location" of that commerce being irrelevant. To be sure, we all like to
talk about a great find or a great deal, but those will always be had.
What really binds this community is what we *do* with the lego. The
glorious multi-tier castles, the expansive townscapes, and (if I have my
way this summer :) the intricate space base/stations and fleets, all
contribute to the sense of community. Now, if online auction services
were preventing entry into the community by artificially raising prices
with no recourse, then I would agree that there would be a problem. But
there are still too many garage sale and auction finds to be had.
> Finally, (and this is more of a personal thing than anything else) If there is
> someone that I know wants something, I'll sell it to them before I put it in my
> garage sale. If I want to get rid of my old lawnmower, I'll see if a
> neighbor, or family member, or friend needs it. The knowledge that something
> is being used by someone I know, and that I know will care about it and use
> it is more important, I believe, than that extra bit of profit. Everytime
And THAT I would declare to be essential. Hence the difference between
the legonomics of buying/selling, and the compartirismo (I don't know of
an English equivalent--maybe "warm sharing"?) of lego trading within the
community. The two are mutually exclusive, because the vast quantity of
lego does not set up a dependency situation of "one more sale is one
less trade, etc." and vice versa. In many cases I would rather trade
then "export" when the situation allows for it, but if I do decide to
"export", I'm not draining a finite pool of community lego.
> someone from RTL/Lugnet goes 'outside' the community, it implies that the
> community is less important that the 'almight dollar' - note I did say
> "implies".
Like you said, this may be where we need agree to disagree. While we
both put community before profit, I don't see pursuing profit as
detrimental to the community.
Adam
bwappo@ee.net
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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| (...) Hmm, Good point. I would be inclined to argue that the good you bring into the community more than outweighs the (contestable) detriment of using an outside auction service. Actually, it would be more than an inclination - I am arguing it. :) (...) (26 years ago, 11-Feb-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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| (...) <more snipping> (...) Oh, I'm not arguing against the minimum incriment! My point is that its a very seductive trap that e-bay uses (and most auctions, to be fair) to get more money out of the marks. Most people, everytime they're outbid, they (...) (26 years ago, 10-Feb-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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