Subject:
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Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:16:45 GMT
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Viewed:
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555 times
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Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> James Brown ranted (or is it raved?):
> >
> > Ok, is it just me, or does the e-bay style of auction actually encourage
> > "unfair"(1) bidding practises?
>
> Yes.
Ah, a firm, solid agreement! (now, if only I could figure out which part of
the sentence he was responding too...)
Pet peeve: people who answer 'a or b' questions with yes.
>
> > On about 2/3 of the auctions I've participated in, or followed, there has • been
> > a similar flow to the bids. Several people bid on it in the first day or so
> > (sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on how popular it is), it reaches
> > fairly reasonable price, and sits there, uncontested, until 4-6 hours before
> > the auction ends. Several people bid on it in the last few hours, and in
>
> Not only that, but they all seem to end past midnight my time which
> means that people who work probably won't be up to compete in the sniping.
I've noticed that part too, but I'm perfectly willing to keep odd hours and let
work suffer because of it ;)
> > I can understand, from e-bay's point of view, why they run it like this, but
> > (to be blunt) why would anyone use it? As far as I can tell, the only
> > advantage to using e-bay, either as a buyer, or a seller, is the exposure. • (for
> > sellers, a greater market, for buyers, greater diversity)
>
> I like it when they answer their own questions.
>
> > As a buyer, I have been frustrated on more than one occaision by the bidding
> > practises described above, while refusing to sink to the same level (3), and
>
> Me to, except for the refusing part...it's just part of the eBay game.
Just because it's allowed (even subtly encouraged) doesn't mean it's right. I
will monitor things I'm high bidder on, and engage in the last-minute bidding
war, but if I want a lot, I will bid on it when I notice it. If I get outbid,
I will consider if it's worth more to me, and (possibly) bid again, although
often not.
>
> > just can't see the point as a seller. If you're not in it for the profit,
>
> Lots and lots of fools dying to be parted from their money.
>
> > odds are you aren't trying to sell it over the internet(4), and e-bay doesn't
> > give you the best chance for profit - a once, twice, sold format does that.
>
> Unless people don't come visit your once, twice, sold auction. eBay has
> tons of people looking to buy stuff. It works. WRT Lego, I prefer to
> control my own auctions for the most part, but I have had great success
> selling other stuff on eBay.
My e-bay experience (and my rant) are primarily in regards to the Lego
auctions. I have no doubt that it allows for a much greater market reach than,
say, a garage sale, and hence a greater chance of reaching either people who
will pay 'better than value' for things they can't find themselves, or suckers.
(often both)
> > As to the exposure, you're not going to catch very many AFOL's that aren't
> > aware of RTL & Lugnet - if you're net-aware and an AFOL, they're both pretty
> > hard to not notice - so why not just advertise there?
>
> Evidence suggests that you are wrong. There are tons of people on eBay
> paying more than people on rtl/lugnet.
I would suggest that most of those fall into one of the following catagories:
1) lurking on RTL/Lugnet
2) morons who think Lego is a good investment
3) AFOL's that are not 'net-aware' - i.e., people who don't understand the
concept of newsgroups, haven't considered (despite the volume of traffic they
see on e-bay) that there might be some kind of Lego-oriented group on the net,
or are just unaware in general (although I have found that most AFOL's are
pretty darn aware)
I would further suggest that most of the higher prices on e-bay reflect the
deceptive nature of e-bay-style auctions (I take it back, e-bay does give you a
higher profit chance than 1-2-sold - expl. to follow)
> > All-in-all, e-bay (to me, at least) seems aimed solidly at the marks. "Hey, I
> > know, why don't we set up a service on the internet to do something people
> > are fully capable of doing themselves, if they bother to work a little? We
> You mean like make a hamburger? Venue aside, McDonalds seems to be
> doing the same thing you claim eBay is doing.
Huge difference. McDonald's is offering a product, e-bay is offering a
service.
> > charge people a fee of some kind to use our service, we'll design it in such
> Who'd have thought? Charge a fee for a service... What will they think
> of next.
Ok, I probably deserved that. I am not always responsible for side-comments
made while going full-steam ahead to a point. (or at least, won't admit it)
> > way that it always seems like a bargain, but it will really just add an
> > unnecessary layer into transactions where we can skim a small amount, and • make
> > a huge profit! Even better, we'll aim it at the american public, because
> > they're the market with the largest percentage of non-professionals on the
> > 'net, and thats the kind of people who will fall for this stuff!"
>
> That's what economy is about. People integrating with the larger system
> of cash-flow so that they can eat, drive BMWs etc.
No, economy is about using an artificial, externally-imposed unit to represent
the exchange of goods and services. It is driven and supported by large
organizations that exist solely to falicilitate the development of 'economy' to
their betterment.
<Whack! "Down! Stay!"> Sorry, my anarchistic tendencies got the better of me
for a minute there. Economy is a necessary evil in modern society (at least, I
haven't heard anyone come up with a better option), providing a common ground
for the exhange of goods and services that can't be directly bartered or
traded. (and without it, Lego wouldn't have left Denmark, so I'll shut up now)
Okey dokey, another attempt at coherence.
E-bay is designed to target the marks. It encourages non-friendly competition.
It also tends to push prices higher than they might otherwise reach (this is
the aformentioned explanation) due to some moderately subtle (but well-known)
psychological ploys:
The first, and this is common to all auctions, is competition. If people are
competing, there is a fairly common instinct(1) to push a little harder or
higher, to prove superiority.
The second, and this is also a very common tactic in any kind of marketing is
**********HEY!!!! L@@K HERE!!!!!!! GREAT DEALS!!!! VERY RARE!!!!!************
the attention grabber. That example is a crude (and offensive, in-your-face)
sort that many individuals on e-bay employ, but e-bay is very skillfully set up
to use several more subtle grabbers - the 'new' and 'pic' graphics are two of
the more pervasive.
A third trick that e-bay uses, also common in marketing, is the deadline trick.
I am quite certain the e-bay claims to use a time-limit style of auction
because other styles would drag on longer, and bog down the server, and reduce
flow-through, etc., but it also has the effect of encouraging people to "buy
now, because it won't be here later." As an example, I have seen no less than
6 6054 Forestman's Hideout sets go through there in the last 15 or so days,
with varying prices, but each time (some) people bid on it like they're never
going to see that set again. The price was pushed higher because "it won't be
avialable after the deadline" - well, of course it won't - but another one
will, virtually guaranteed. (especially with a fairly common set like 6054).
The fourth factor that raises prices on e-bay is the 'minimum bid' trick. The
thought that $21.00 isn't that much more than $20.50 isn't that much more than
$20 isn't that much...etc. is very seductive, and pulls (I would hazard a
guess) about 95% of what e-bay sells to a couple of bucks higher, every time.
This doesn't make a big difference to the individuals involved, but I certainly
imagine that it adds up to a lot of money for e-bay.
None of these points are particularly meant to "expose" e-bay - they are all
fairly common marketing and sales tactics, and darn near everyone uses them - I
intend to use some of it myself, when I start auctioning Lego to support my
habit. My point is that while yes, e-bay will probably get you higher prices
than RTL or Lugnet will, and it takes less effort to run things through there,
it is not helpful to the AFOL community.
Running things through e-bay for that extra shred of profit is detrimental,
because its unlikely to make a huge difference for any one auctioneer (your BSB
might get 20 more bucks, whoopie. In the long run, that's diddly squat), and
it pulls money out of the AFOL community - how much of that 20 bucks goes to
e-bay for listing fees and percentage of high bid?
Using e-bay to reach a broader market is a bit silly, because they charge you
for that market reach, when RTL and Lugnet don't, and the market reach that
e-bay gives you is a cross-section of the general public, while RTL and Lugnet
give a focused, pro-active market share (people who actively involve themselves
in a hobby or activity, rather than people who just wander through an auction
server)
E-bay also opens the door for Lego to become (or to be perceived as) an
opportunity for profiteers - I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of traffic
in the Lego group is people snapping up 'trendy' or 'popular' sets now to hang
on to them for a few years, and then re-sell them. These are the same people
(some of them) with boxes full of Magic:the Gathering cards and comic books
they can't get rid of. It's a fairly common knowledge that easily 75% of
speculation on toys nets nothing significant. (the other 25% is due to Talking
Elmo;) )
1: not exactly the right word, because it implies inherent, not learned, but it
gets the point across
Whew! (pant pant pant) Ok, enough for now :)
James
http://www.shades-of-night.com/lego/
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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| (...) Yeah. (...) Well, at least you've got your priorities straight. (...) I doubt that this is a huge group. (...) Unfortunately, those 'morons' are right. (...) I assume some of them are in this group too, but not the majority. (...) Right, (...) (26 years ago, 10-Feb-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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| <snipped a lot of stuff that has already reached conclusion> (...) I agree. I find that the former appear when selling unusual items, and the latter appear when selling big items. The rest tends to even out. (...) I think (2) only occurs when the (...) (26 years ago, 10-Feb-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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| James Brown ranted (or is it raved?): (...) Yes. (...) Not only that, but they all seem to end past midnight my time which means that people who work probably won't be up to compete in the sniping. (...) I like it when they answer their own (...) (26 years ago, 9-Feb-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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