Subject:
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Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:26:17 GMT
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Viewed:
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734 times
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Mike Stanley writes:
> James Brown <galliard@shades-of-night.com> wrote:
> > I was not remotely implying that you are not part of the Lego community! I
> > was stating that e-bay is not part of the Lego community. That 2% every time
> > effectively never comes back in. (barring complicated theories of market ebb
> > and flow)
>
> I may have misunderstood what you said before and responded in a
> rather offended tone in a previous post. Forgive me if it offended
> you.
No problem. I flared up too.
> But I don't agree with this either. If a set will sell for $100 on
> RTL but might go for $150 on eBay (larger audience, the way eBay
> encourages higher bidding, inexperienced people, whatever) then that
> 2% doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, does it? If I
> sell it on RTL I get $100 and Bob gets his set. If I sell it for $150
> on eBay I get $150 minus the eBay fee and Frank gets his set. Any way
> you look at it I get more money (as a member of the Lego community)
> and a buyer gets a set he wants.
Understood. I would just prefer that the buyer who gets it is someone who
participates online. From what others have said, about half the winning bids
go to people who don't participate in RTL or Lugnet, and that set does, in a
way, "disappear"
More on that low -uh, make that below. :)
> > concern is the (warning: prejudices leaking!) trailer park bozo constantly in
>
> That is pretty prejudiced. Downright offensive, actually. And no, I
> don't now and never have lived in a trailer park. Known wonderfully
> good honest people who have, though.
You're absolutely correct. I used 'trailer park' without even thinking about
it, solely to express a negative connotation, when I should bloody well know
better. (do know better, in fact.) My apologies.
> > search of the "big score" - he wanders through e-bay, sees a whole bunch of
> > Lego, and notices that pirate boats are selling for a couple hundred bucks
> > each. He doesn't go out and find pirate boats locally and try to sell them,
> > no, that would be effort. What he does do, is starts buying them off e-bay,
> > and stuffing them in a closet, with the mistaken perception that "if they get
> > 200 now, they'll get 300 next week" Now, this guy rarely wins more than 1 or
> > 2 lots (although he's invariaby taken in by the psychological tricks e-bay
>
> I'd be surprised if many people really do this. You'd have to have
> fairly deep pockets and a lack of experience and sense to do it, and
> deep pockets and lack of sense rarely go together.
>
> > but what he *does* do is drive up the price on every single pirate boat that
> > goes through e-bay, for as long as his 'scam of the week' remains Lego. • Given
> > the sheer volume of traffic going through e-bay, and how easy it is to use,
> > this guy is all over the place there. Then he goes out and buys 47 "genuine
> > Italian marble" garden gnomes. ;)
>
> How many people do you know personally who actually do this? I know a
> lot of people who like to capitalize on trends, but nobody who goes to
> this extreme you seem to be describing.
I personally know of three. I'm related to one of them, in fact. (and I
dispute the 'deep pockets' assumption)
To give an example from experience, one of my friends saw how crazy everyone
was over magic cards when they first came out. He then went to the local
gaming store, and pre-ordered 6 boxes of cards (not packs, boxes), which was
about half of the incoming order. Instead of selling them right away for a
quick buck, or holding on to them until a week ago, and retiring ;) he kept
them in his closet "until the time was right" Unfortunately for him, that was
about the same time that the unlimited run flooded the market, and people
hadn't yet attached ridiculous value to the beta run - he barely made 50 bucks
on each box, which he probably lost to Visa in interest. Unfortunately for
everybody else, those cards collected dust in a closet while die-hard fans were
dying to get at them.
A combination of "get-rich-quick" syndrome, combined with lack of sense, that
was my friend.
I don't know the guy anymore (he moved) but whenever something failed to make
him rich, he'd just brush it off, and move to the next 'big score'
The other two I know are much the same way. The scheme that fails is
yesterday's news, its todays plan that will make them rich. "Tonight, Pinky,
we take over the world!"
If I know of three people like this, in a fairly narrow range of relations and
peer group, then I am inclined to think that there are a lot of people like
that out there.
> > The RTL and Lugnet community is a fairly close-knit community, of (generally
> > speaking) intelligent, reasonable adults who have a single hobby in common.
> > To me, that such a thing exists at all is enough reason to not go outside of
> > it. When someone from that community sells/auctions a set outside that
> > community, I feel the community as a whole loses out. Yes, the individual • gets
> > a better return, which then gets put back in (albiet indirectly), but to me,
> > that benefit is outweighed.
>
> I don't agree. On a personal level I do choose to sell things for
> less, or hell, even give them away or trade cheap to the people in my
> community I've come to think of as friends. But in general, when I
> have something to sell, or a lot of somethings, I'd rather make more
> money than not.
>
> Does that mean that I won't hold something back for the abovementioned
> cheaper sell or trade, or maybe even so I can give it as a gift?
> Nope, do it all the time. But I'm not Santa Claus. I sell the things
> I sell to make money to buy the things I want. If I can sell gable
> bricks on eBay for twice what I can get on RTL, that just means more
> money in my pocket that I can use on the next 6085 I see offered.
> Maybe I won't have to be so cheap when I do see it.
I think that here it is much the same as Adam and I - we'll have to agree to
disagree.
> > First, prices on e-bay are higher, and that inflates the price of non-retail
> > Lego beyond what the community sees the value as being. That means that we • all
> > "pay" extra every time a set gets more 'valuable'. Inflation is inevitable,
> > but it should be related to availability, not to profit. ( I realize that I • am
> > arguing an ideal)
>
> This has happened without eBay's help and would continue to happen if
> eBay's HQ were firebombed tonight. Especially when you're talking
> about out of production sets. They get more expensive, not less, over
> time.
Yup, you're right. But the sets on e-bay are getting more expensive (partly
due to exposure, partly due to the way e-bay runs) in a way that has nothing to
do with availability or age, but with profit.
> > Second, every time someone not part of the Lego community buys a set, it
> > effectively disappears forever. So each time a set is sold outside the
> > community, that set becomes harder to find, and the price goes up. Again, we
> > all pay.
>
> Well, again, I'd have to stress that not ALL sets sold through eBay go
> to people even *I* would say are outside of the community you seem to
> have so firm an understanding of. I know at least 5 people who could
> very easily buy Lego sets on eBay (all of them are into Lego stuff and
> all of them have used eBay for other things) but you wouldn't know
> them from Adam as they don't choose to participate on RTL or Lugnet.
>
> If my friend John buys an older Technic set via eBay you wouldn't know
> him so you'd see it as a loss to the community. I do know him and I
> wouldn't. Now something tells me that if *I* know 5 people who are
> unknown to the rest of you, at least a few of you know at least a few
> people of your own.
Ah yes, but your friends aren't part of the "community" (meaning RTL/Lugnet) -
they are members of your peer groups. To me, and to the vast majority of the
community, your friend (effectively) doesn't exist.
> What if the Doctor (forget his name) who recently surfaced with his
> awesome castles had been buying up older Castle sets for the last two
> years on eBay? By your second reason there you would probably have
> said that for two years those sets disappeared into the ether, then
> suddenly reappeared when he broke onto the RTL scene.
Yup, you're right. Those sets would have been gone until Dr. Carney came onto
the scene. Lego comes in and out all the time - my problems with e-bay is that
it sends Lego out, and makes the incoming stuff (generally) more expensive.
> > Third, while you get a better return (say 20%), only 18% of that return • 'stays'
> > in the community - the other 2% is effectively lost into the general economy,
> > and it never comes back.
>
> Yeah, but all 18% goes into my pocket, and then possibly into Todd's
> pocket or Naji's pocket or your pocket. If I had sold on RTL and made
> 20% less then that 18% would have never made it into your pocket. And
> if one of the people *I* believe are just as much a part of the
> community as you or I bought the set via eBay then where is the loss?
But if you sold on RTL, then the set would stay in the community. For you, 18%
less, for the community, 2% more.
Ok, a (not) brief digression on "community", because that seems to be hanging
us up a lot here. By community, I mean the people who participate on
RTL/Lugnet, or are on the Lego Maniac's webring, or are otherwise fairly easily
accessable by each other - Dr. Carney started in the third catagory (someone
said 'Wow, you should see these' and everyone went and looked) and is now in
the first catagory (RTL roll-call etc). People who lurk, or people who choose
not to participate aren't community members.
To draw an analogy (which will probably come back to haunt me) if 5 people live
in a neighborhood (play with Lego), and four of them meet regularly and talk,
and do things together, but the fifth chooses to not have anything to do with
them (even if he watches from his front window), then the community consists of
only 4 people. Community is a social entity, and people who do not participate
in it, are not part of it. Your friend John, while a good friend and peer to
you, is not part of the community, because (to stretch the analogy) he doesn't
visit or talk with anyone but you.
> > Fourth, if a set is sold 'outside' the community, then we never know what • gets
> > done with it - there is never any feedback - no website, no newsgroup
> > discussion sparked by someone finding a great set, nothing. Again, we lose
> > out, and this is arguably a more significant lose than the money part of the
> > equation.
>
> Who says? This is all supposition. It can happen that way. I don't
> want to beat the horse even more, but you haven't done anything to
> demonstrate that a set sold to ANYONE on eBay is a set sold to someone
> outside the community. I don't think you can.
I think this is still a hangup over the definition of community.
> > Finally, (and this is more of a personal thing than anything else) If there
> > is someone that I know wants something, I'll sell it to them before I put it
> > in my garage sale. If I want to get rid of my old lawnmower, I'll see if a
> > neighbor, or family member, or friend needs it. The knowledge that something
> > is being used by someone I know, and that I know will care about it and use
> > it is more important, I believe, than that extra bit of profit. Everytime
> > someone from RTL/Lugnet goes 'outside' the community, it implies that the
> > community is less important that the 'almight dollar' - note I did say
> > "implies".
Ok, this is an opinion. I am not trying to establish a "right" or "wrong" way
of doing things, merely presenting the way I would do them. The implication is
an implication for me, and certainly not a hard fast rule. That being said,
the above still holds true (for me), and if my reasoning hasn't been explained
enough in this and other posts, then someone can ask me to beat the horse some
more.
<snipped examples of Mike not putting money first>
Then you're contributing to the community, and "I ain't got no complaints wi'
dat."
James
http://www.shades-of-night.com/lego/
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
|
| (...) That's rather sad. A box of Beta currently goes for... $2000, I think. Possibly more. Arabian Nights go for $4000, which is totally silly - I calculated once what cards you'd get out of it (pretty good guess, as in each box you get 120 out of (...) (26 years ago, 11-Feb-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: CFD: e-bay (aka ranting and raving)
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| (...) I may have misunderstood what you said before and responded in a rather offended tone in a previous post. Forgive me if it offended you. But I don't agree with this either. If a set will sell for $100 on RTL but might go for $150 on eBay (...) (26 years ago, 11-Feb-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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