Subject:
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Re: Scariness (was Re: Conflict in the Middle East)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 18 Apr 2002 16:11:43 GMT
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Viewed:
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950 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Trobaugh writes:
> > > > > The only way for a true peace to become a reality in the Middle East is for
> > > > > one side or the other to achieve a complete military victory. Appeasement
> > > > > got us where we are … victory can bring peace.
> > > >
> > > > People that prize peace do not express themselves in terms of "complete
> > > > military victory." And you think I make scarey comments?
> > >
> > > I was tempted to reply to James with "this is one of the scariest, most
> > > disturbing posts I've ever read on LUGNET."... but I thought I had better
> > > not! ;)
> > >
> > > Scott A
> >
> > Maybe because what James said happens to be true-- you need to think about
> > history to appreciate its wisdom.
>
> Perhaps you could explain this a little more so that the "wisdom" may be
> appreciated?
>
> >
> > I will go on record as to saying that Richard's post in question was probably
> > the most disturbing I've ever read in this forum as well.
>
> Perhaps you could explain (as I think nobody else has despite requests) why it
> is so disturbing?
>
> Scott A
>
>
>
>
> >
> > -John
quoteth James
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Trobaugh writes:
> > > > > The only way for a true peace to become a reality in the Middle East is for
> > > > > one side or the other to achieve a complete military victory. Appeasement
> > > > > got us where we are … victory can bring peace.
Victory can bring us peace? What, at the annihilation of one side or the
other? True, that's peace, since you now have no one that disagrees with you.
Further, if you think victory doesn't necessitate a complete total party
wipeout, but as a clear victor governing the losers of the conflict, just
look at the U.S.S.R. The countries that fell under the communist regime
were at "peace" only so long as they were under the rule of the soviets. As
soon as the wall came a tumblin' down, all those old conflicts resurfaced -
50 years later. Real peace has to be *wanted*, not forced, not governed,
not sanctioned.
No, the only way this thing will end in real peace, as almost *any* conflict
could end peacefully, is when these people, on *both sides*, suck it up, put
aside 'old issues' rehashed thru the years, stop teaching their kids to
hate, come to an understanding, grow up, realize that killing doesn't
achieve anything, that terror != victory, and accept each others
differences--read *educated*. Not the U.S.of A. educated 'capitalism and
democracy is a gift from God' but educated in that we understand the concept
of 'us and them', 'those that are inferior, less than we are', are bigoted,
self righteous views that lead to things like, oh where has this been said
before, annihilation, genocide, atrocity, a la Hitler.
I don't care which side does it--I'm not 'pro Israel' or whatever. Whoever
does the killing, whoever walks into a place with a bomb strapped to their
chest and blows up women, kids, houses and villages, whoever sells ammo and
guns, whoever sanctions these attacks, are equally guilty and will have to
answer to whatever god(s) they believe in.
I am *not* a pacifist. I will defend the right for people to swing their
arms as much as they want as long as it does not connect with someone's
nose. If there were a tyrant trying to take over the world (again, like
hitler), I would be the first to sign up to fight against such a regime. My
girlfriend (who is a total pacifist :) ) calls that idea a 'Just war' (as
far as wars can be called 'Just'). That said, I would have to be pushed
pretty far and run out of any other way to rectify the situation before I
actually picked up a gun. And there would never come a time when I would
strap a bomb to my chest and go blow up people, for that won't help, in
*any* way, to achieve peace.
Therefore I can safely say that since this is what they are doing, that they
(they being whoever's doing it--again, don't care which side) are *not*
interested in peace, but total annihilaton.
Since this is what both sides are doing, and since we, aka 'the civilized'
world, are supporting one side or the other, we are supporting, at best,
atrocities against humankind, at worst, genocide.
Thank you very much. That is all.
Dave
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