Subject:
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Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:49:32 GMT
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Viewed:
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569 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> Scott A wrote:
> >
> > > The problem that I see is that the Palestinian snipers and bombers will
> > > never stop. The latest bombing of an Arab owned restaurant makes it
> > > clear that the Palestinian's have absolutely no concern for anyone who
> > > accepts Israel.
> >
> > As far as I am aware the restaurant was actually Palestinian-Israeli owned.
> > But that makes very little difference. It was still a very cruel act. The
> > difference is that on the Palestinian side there is absolute desperation and
> > some with extremist views. This leads to extreme and intolerable actions
> > which cannot be defended by anyone. Israel’s current actions will not stop
> > this – it will fuel it. Does anyone really doubt that?
>
> I agree that desperation is an aspect of the Palestinian mindset,
> however, I really feel that the core of the Palestinian resistance is
> not acting out of desperation. It is acting out of pure desire for
> power, based on a power structure which can only be supported by
> violence.
The Israelis are trying to encourage the "desire for power" by isolating
Arafat. Just the same as they did when they helped establish Hamas to rival
the PLO in ‘88.
>
> What should give the Arabs pause in thinking how to deal with Israel is
> to think how the Israelis would act if pushed to the same level of
> desperation. Even the current Israeli response is in part driven by
> desperation (they just aren't as far down the curve as the
> Palestinians).
Desperation for what? More land? A western lifestyle? Shopping Malls?
Holiday Resorts? 5-Star Hotels? It’s not desperate peace, its own history
shows that.
>
> It is clear that any workable solution must eliminate the source of
> desperation on both sides. Unfortunately, this won't result in a
> cessation of violence, because as I mentioned above, I believe the core
> of the Palestinian resistance has built itself around the power of
> violence (in another response you responded about Northern Ireland, and
> there the same problem exists, recent developments have dramatically
> changed the climate for the "common" person, yet the groups whose power
> derived from violence are struggling to maintain their power. I also
> note that one problem with stopping the drug war by legalizing drugs
> would not end drug violence because again, there is a power structure
> built on violence).
>
> The question is how you root out these violence based power structures
> while maintaining rights for everyone else. I don't think you can do it,
> and as you root them out, you will awaken new resistance (for example,
> relatives who have been able to distance themselves from what their
> relation is doing because it isn't personal who then become enraged when
> their relation is captured or killed). If the injury on both sides is
> not too much, it is possible to mostly disarm these situations, but it's
> very hard. One way to help disarm them, which seems less likely today,
> is to pour incredible amounts of economic aid into the region after
> stepping in and breaking up the fight. Of course one question is whether
> anyone in today's world could step in and break up the fight? It worked
> for W.W.II because the fight became so global that essentially all of
> the power in the world was involved on one side or the other. The allies
> won, and then the US stepped in and said: "This is what the deal is."
2 years ago, the "west" was considering paying $40,000,000,000 for peace in
the middle east.
>
> Afghanistan has a some chance of being a success story because we did
> win a decisive and complete victory (well, ok, so there's a few elements
> still bouncing around, but they have little support).
It certainly was "decisive" for the 5,000 - 8,000 civilians killed to keep
the US body-bag-count low. You may consider it a "victory", but which of the
war aims have been met?
> The real question
> is if we can bring enough economic aid in, and if we have been forceful
> enough in laying out what we expect of the new government. If we bring
> enough aid, and the government is set up reasonably, then after some
> period of time, the population will come to see that they really have
> been freed, but I still wouldn't expect the same turnaround as we see in
> Germany and Japan. One problem is Afghanistan doesn't have a modern
> infrastructure and mindset to rebuild like Germany and Japan did.
That's correct, I doubt there will be many McDonald’s franchises.
>
> > What is Israel's excuse for killing civilians? I watched on TV last night as
> > they shot at UK peace protestors and a BBC film crew.
>
> I do think Israel needs to be condemned for indiscriminate shooting. On
> the other hand, I have little sympathy for any foreigners who find
> themselves in the middle of a firefight between Palestinians and
> Israelis which I'm guessing happened here (but since I didn't see the
> coverage myself, I can only guess).
I agree with what you say, but I still have respect for what they are doing:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1906000/1906570.stm
I read in the Guardian today that the IDF tear-gassed Israeli peace
activists yesterday... bus loads of them.
>
> The whole situation is an incredibly difficult thing to break. If the
> Israeli army just stops shooting back, what will happen? If the Israeli
> army stops trying to capture terrorists and destroy bomb labs, what will
> happen?
Right now the Israeli's have 1,000,000 Palestinian civilians imprisoned in
their own homes. To date, there have been *6* militants arrested.
> Non violence will not win a secure Israel (remember, there are
> Arab nations who refuse to acknowledge Israel).
As I said yesterday, Israel does not acknowledge its own borders! It is more
interested in sustaining its relationship with the USA, than it is with the
Arab nations... and that is a fact.
>
> This is why I wonder if there is any solution possible at all in any of
> these situations. I think about these situations, and look at why we
> don't have them in the US, and the only conclusion I come to is that we
> don't see these problems in the US because we essentially wiped out the
> natives.
Early settlers in Israel made the exact the same parallel in an attempt to
get support from the USA.
Scott A
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) I wonder where you get your information from? please share... "Through late Wednesday, the IDF said it had arrested about 1,100 Palestinians in the West Bank over the last couple of days, including many "wanted Palestinians." The Israeli (...) (23 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) The US took control of a route to Central Asian Oil and Gas fields that does not pass through Russia nor Iran? Particularly interesting, when we know Bush has personal interests in this sector. Pedro (23 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) I agree that desperation is an aspect of the Palestinian mindset, however, I really feel that the core of the Palestinian resistance is not acting out of desperation. It is acting out of pure desire for power, based on a power structure which (...) (23 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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