Subject:
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Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 3 Apr 2002 17:32:29 GMT
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Viewed:
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555 times
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Scott A wrote:
>
> > The problem that I see is that the Palestinian snipers and bombers will
> > never stop. The latest bombing of an Arab owned restaurant makes it
> > clear that the Palestinian's have absolutely no concern for anyone who
> > accepts Israel.
>
> As far as I am aware the restaurant was actually Palestinian-Israeli owned.
> But that makes very little difference. It was still a very cruel act. The
> difference is that on the Palestinian side there is absolute desperation and
> some with extremist views. This leads to extreme and intolerable actions
> which cannot be defended by anyone. Israel’s current actions will not stop
> this – it will fuel it. Does anyone really doubt that?
I agree that desperation is an aspect of the Palestinian mindset,
however, I really feel that the core of the Palestinian resistance is
not acting out of desperation. It is acting out of pure desire for
power, based on a power structure which can only be supported by
violence.
What should give the Arabs pause in thinking how to deal with Israel is
to think how the Israelis would act if pushed to the same level of
desperation. Even the current Israeli response is in part driven by
desperation (they just aren't as far down the curve as the
Palestinians).
It is clear that any workable solution must eliminate the source of
desperation on both sides. Unfortunately, this won't result in a
cessation of violence, because as I mentioned above, I believe the core
of the Palestinian resistance has built itself around the power of
violence (in another response you responded about Northern Ireland, and
there the same problem exists, recent developments have dramatically
changed the climate for the "common" person, yet the groups whose power
derived from violence are struggling to maintain their power. I also
note that one problem with stopping the drug war by legalizing drugs
would not end drug violence because again, there is a power structure
built on violence).
The question is how you root out these violence based power structures
while maintaining rights for everyone else. I don't think you can do it,
and as you root them out, you will awaken new resistance (for example,
relatives who have been able to distance themselves from what their
relation is doing because it isn't personal who then become enraged when
their relation is captured or killed). If the injury on both sides is
not too much, it is possible to mostly disarm these situations, but it's
very hard. One way to help disarm them, which seems less likely today,
is to pour incredible amounts of economic aid into the region after
stepping in and breaking up the fight. Of course one question is whether
anyone in today's world could step in and break up the fight? It worked
for W.W.II because the fight became so global that essentially all of
the power in the world was involved on one side or the other. The allies
won, and then the US stepped in and said: "This is what the deal is."
Afghanistan has a some chance of being a success story because we did
win a decisive and complete victory (well, ok, so there's a few elements
still bouncing around, but they have little support). The real question
is if we can bring enough economic aid in, and if we have been forceful
enough in laying out what we expect of the new government. If we bring
enough aid, and the government is set up reasonably, then after some
period of time, the population will come to see that they really have
been freed, but I still wouldn't expect the same turnaround as we see in
Germany and Japan. One problem is Afghanistan doesn't have a modern
infrastructure and mindset to rebuild like Germany and Japan did.
> What is Israel's excuse for killing civilians? I watched on TV last night as
> they shot at UK peace protestors and a BBC film crew.
I do think Israel needs to be condemned for indiscriminate shooting. On
the other hand, I have little sympathy for any foreigners who find
themselves in the middle of a firefight between Palestinians and
Israelis which I'm guessing happened here (but since I didn't see the
coverage myself, I can only guess).
The whole situation is an incredibly difficult thing to break. If the
Israeli army just stops shooting back, what will happen? If the Israeli
army stops trying to capture terrorists and destroy bomb labs, what will
happen? Non violence will not win a secure Israel (remember, there are
Arab nations who refuse to acknowledge Israel).
This is why I wonder if there is any solution possible at all in any of
these situations. I think about these situations, and look at why we
don't have them in the US, and the only conclusion I come to is that we
don't see these problems in the US because we essentially wiped out the
natives.
Frank
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) And this so-called power gives them what precisely? World attention? It took years for that to happen -- and even now a guy like Arafat is suspected of not having very much real power even with his own people anyway. I remain very unconvinced (...) (23 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) The Israelis are trying to encourage the "desire for power" by isolating Arafat. Just the same as they did when they helped establish Hamas to rival the PLO in ‘88. (...) Desperation for what? More land? A western lifestyle? Shopping Malls? (...) (23 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) As far as I am aware the restaurant was actually Palestinian-Israeli owned. But that makes very little difference. It was still a very cruel act. The difference is that on the Palestinian side there is absolute desperation and some with (...) (23 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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