Subject:
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Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 3 Apr 2002 20:01:22 GMT
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Viewed:
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523 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> I agree that desperation is an aspect of the Palestinian mindset,
> however, I really feel that the core of the Palestinian resistance is
> not acting out of desperation. It is acting out of pure desire for
> power, based on a power structure which can only be supported by
> violence.
And this so-called power gives them what precisely? World attention?
It took years for that to happen -- and even now a guy like Arafat is
suspected of not having very much real power even with his own people
anyway. I remain very unconvinced about this "power" motive -- and even if
it is a motive for a very elite few, it's more sideshow than main attraction
stuff. I am far more willing to believe that they are merely desperate.
Gotta keep your eye on the bouncing ball...
Think of this as applying Occam's Razor to the possible motives of the
participants. They have been the underdogs for many years --do I need to
discern a motive beyond desperation to explain their behavior?
> I also note that one problem with stopping the drug war by legalizing
> drugs would not end drug violence because again, there is a power
> structure built on violence).
This did not follow at all in my mind, but...
Are we talking about gangs in the U.S. or the millionaire farmer's abroad?
In either case, I am pretty sure that stripped of a profit
motive, the possible power struggles go away. Or maybe I am just not getting
what you are expressing here...
> One problem is Afghanistan doesn't have a modern infrastructure and
> mindset to rebuild like Germany and Japan did.
Is this a "superior" attitude I detect? What? Are the people of this
country not "boot-strappers" enough for you or something?
> The whole situation is an incredibly difficult thing to break. If the
> Israeli army just stops shooting back, what will happen? If the Israeli
> army stops trying to capture terrorists and destroy bomb labs, what will
> happen? Non violence will not win a secure Israel (remember, there are
> Arab nations who refuse to acknowledge Israel).
Exactly in the same manner that a de facto Palestinian state was not
acknowledged by the westerners that allowed the creation of the State of
Israel in the first place. But whatever...
FWIW, I don't happen to like the characterization of Palestinian fighters as
"terrorists." Whatever else these violent people may be, I think we can at
least acknowledge that they see themselves as being in a state of war. They
act consistently in the manner of people at war with those of another
country. I do not condone their actions, but I think calling people
"terrorists" goes too far in the direction of creating an "us" and "them"
mentality that accomplishes nothing and may actually serve to cloud the
obvious responsibility of others in a conflict -- such as the Israelis and
ourselves (in the U.S. specifically) by extension.
No one is innocent.
> This is why I wonder if there is any solution possible at all in any of
> these situations. I think about these situations, and look at why we
> don't have them in the US, and the only conclusion I come to is that we
> don't see these problems in the US because we essentially wiped out the
> natives.
Right. And even the surviving few do not have the means or case law to
support their struggle.
We are SO proud, aren't we...?
-- Hop-Frog
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) To be fair, "they" also identify such a distinction, and "them" ain't "us." I understand your point and agree with it in the abstract, but I think it's a mistake to act as if all distinctions are arbitrary, fleeting, or non-existent--even if (...) (23 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) yeah, it's not a situation that can be remedied by sound bites and bandaids.. To add a separate thread of debate -- one thing that has been bothering me as of late is the 'restitution for atrocities that happened in the past' It was wrong for (...) (23 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) I agree that desperation is what is driving _most_ of the Palestinians. However, a small number have achieved positions of power (not really Arafat, though he certainly has some power) due to their ability to lead and incite rebellion. These (...) (23 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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| (...) I agree that desperation is an aspect of the Palestinian mindset, however, I really feel that the core of the Palestinian resistance is not acting out of desperation. It is acting out of pure desire for power, based on a power structure which (...) (23 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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