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Now is the time for the American authorities to give a crystal clear message to the Israeli authorities that the violence and the occupation must end. I think that is the only short term solution for the conflict right now. Fredrik (22 years ago, 31-Mar-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Just to start the flamethrowers: I don't think this White House is going to do that. It would jeopardize their rhetorical position, which wants so desperately to be black-and- white about states vs. terrorism that they can't see how grey the (...) (22 years ago, 31-Mar-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Fredrik Glöckner" <fredrigl@math.uio.no> wrote in message news:m3k7rs3boa.fsf@...ldomain... (...) Agree, but there is no oil involved this time, or other shorttime profits in doing so ;-). /Joakim (22 years ago, 31-Mar-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) not to get into the whole "occupation" thing now, but what do you suggest Israel do? Just sit back while it's citizens are killed? I don't have a solution either, but going into the territories and taking away the illegal weapons the PA has (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm more and more thinking that there will be no real solution to the problem. A few solutions I could see which might work: 1. The US says, "**** you all, we're tired of this. You have 72 hours to evacuate the middle east and then we are (...) (22 years ago, 1-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But that is the very nub of this problem. Until Israel, and its apologists, realise that, there can be no hope of peace. Israel has done nothing but stall for time to gain a foothold in the various occupied territories - and that goes right (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree with some of this. The problem is that the USA has a much louder voice in this due to the $,$$$,$$$,$$$.$$ it gives to Sharon. Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I’ll admit to being a little irked by this. What has brought about “peace” in NI is the realisation that violence could only get the terrorists groups so far. The IRA (and its Loyalist counterparts) has just as little regard for “rights” (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) As far as I am aware the restaurant was actually Palestinian-Israeli owned. But that makes very little difference. It was still a very cruel act. The difference is that on the Palestinian side there is absolute desperation and some with (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is an interesting point! However, I think that if there is one nations' government which is respected in Israel, it must be that of the US. Israel, being the strongest part in the conflict, should take the initiative and responsibility (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Some OPEC countries want to the restrict oil production to sanction Israel and USA. If they succeed, there may be oil involved this time. I doubt it, though. Fredrik (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I wonder what the future plans of the Israeli government are. Having removed parts of the infrastructure and police force of the PA, they will probably have to put in their own resources for this function in the future. I think that this can (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) AFAIK, OPEC hasn't been selling oil to Israel since the early 70s, if ever. But I don't have links, so it might just be a misconception of mine. Dan (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I believe they tried that. Oslo, and a any other agreement signed - however, agreements don't do much unless both sides do their part. As far as I know, the PA has never actually done anything that it said it would. Dan (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Just some super-quick thoughts on this ongoing problem... (...) How can the U.S. send crystal clear messages about aggression when our hands are dirty in Afghanistan? (...) Short-term solutions will not work in this conflict, not that I disagree (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) If those were two euro-cents, it would have been me saying it. ;-) I share this oppinion entirely - especially what you say regarding the Chinese stand, I think that is a pretty clever reading of the situation (but then again, China has (...) (22 years ago, 2-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) In '49 the UN passed a resolution to put Jerusalem under its control. Four days later Israel moved the Knesset there. Scott A (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree that desperation is an aspect of the Palestinian mindset, however, I really feel that the core of the Palestinian resistance is not acting out of desperation. It is acting out of pure desire for power, based on a power structure which (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And this so-called power gives them what precisely? World attention? It took years for that to happen -- and even now a guy like Arafat is suspected of not having very much real power even with his own people anyway. I remain very unconvinced (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) To be fair, "they" also identify such a distinction, and "them" ain't "us." I understand your point and agree with it in the abstract, but I think it's a mistake to act as if all distinctions are arbitrary, fleeting, or non-existent--even if (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) yeah, it's not a situation that can be remedied by sound bites and bandaids.. To add a separate thread of debate -- one thing that has been bothering me as of late is the 'restitution for atrocities that happened in the past' It was wrong for (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes indeed, but let's be realistic about it. There are people ALIVE TODAY who participated in atrocities during WWII against people who are ALIVE TODAY, so it's not like this is something we're inferring from the fossil record. For many (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree that desperation is what is driving _most_ of the Palestinians. However, a small number have achieved positions of power (not really Arafat, though he certainly has some power) due to their ability to lead and incite rebellion. These (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) (URL) only shows the Israeli casualties though... I don't know where to find the Palestinian side. Also all these are easy to verify (cnn, ruiters), unlike some of the PA claims. Dan (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Define "significant", please. 'Cause I can remember *a lot* of peaceful nations that resulted from the acceptance of their independance by a theoretically much stronger enemy, rather than its anihilation. Browse through a map of Europe and you (...) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) available, it seems so - has this also been verified in past times of conflict? (say '87-'93, for instance) Pedro (just curious, really) (22 years ago, 3-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, actually I reject the notion that desperation is not a factor in N.I. Peace is one issue, freedom is another. I am not sure I can condone a state of peace maintained at the expense of freedom and self-rule -- is one expected to be happy (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A little monetary incentive helps too (URL) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) True, but the USA is so biased that its endeavors would be seen as possibly self-interested. Trust would be better placed in a third party that is strong enough to be immune to US strongarming. best LFB (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) their attack on the Jordanian village of Qibya in ‘53. The day after the attack a UN observer said that the IDF had forced civilians to stay in their homes whilst they were demolished around them. 69 civilians were killed - over half of them (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) money, or even how many bombers were motivated by it. I really doubt it is a deciding factor when you are forced to give up land your family has lived on for generations to house economic refugees from Eastern Europe. Israel is also rewarded (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Most people might agree. Why do they need a homeland? I'm leaning toward believing that the very notion of 'homeland' is a divisive instrument. Maybe we should seek to eliminate that idea globally. (...) I think that terror is a tool (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The Israelis are trying to encourage the "desire for power" by isolating Arafat. Just the same as they did when they helped establish Hamas to rival the PLO in ‘88. (...) Desperation for what? More land? A western lifestyle? Shopping Malls? (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes: this is one of the scariest, most disturbing posts I've ever read on LUGNET. (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I'm with you on that Dan. jt (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) so you're not saying that what I quoted was wrong, just that they were missing some info? perhaps. BTW, that attack in '53 is taught today, still, in IDF basic training as an example of an "illegal command", which a soldier is not allowed to (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The situation in the Middle East is complicated. Both sides have points to be made and complaints that deserve a hearing. But there are stark differences between the two – and these differences paint a clear picture of who wears the black hat (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The interesting point about a Jewish "homeland", is that at the turn of the last centaury a large tract of Argentina was being considered seriously. Scott A (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I wonder where you get your information from? please share... "Through late Wednesday, the IDF said it had arrested about 1,100 Palestinians in the West Bank over the last couple of days, including many "wanted Palestinians." The Israeli (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The front page of The Guardian (not an infotainment channel). The online version: (URL) far, the onslaught has produced few tangible results for Israel while reducing Palestinian towns to smouldering wrecks, penning tens of thousands in their (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) By building 34 settlements in the past year? (...) By firing missiles into residential areas? (...) I don't see much of this "tolerance". (...) Indeed. Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) so when you said that "to date, there have been *6* militants arrested" you meant to say "in that one attack", ah. Also, I really haven't heard of any towns "reduced to smouldering wrecks" - I guess I don't read the same sources you do. (...) (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You're wasting your breath. Careful you don't fall into the same trap that I did, so many times before. (but which I think I'm mostly cured of, now... time will tell) Fail to ignore him at your peril. (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Read again Dan: "After Israeli helicopters and tanks bombarded a security compound in Ramallah for nearly 24 hours, a government spokeswoman announced the capture of just six wanted Palestinian militants. There was no sign that the house to (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | volume v quality (was Re: Conflict in the Middle East)
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<snip> (...) <snip> Larry, That's correct. I (and others) cured you of your need to engage in name-calling and mudslinging in this group. It's just my view, but I think this group is better because you no longer post here in the manner you once did. (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) thanks for the reminder. I was breaking my own rule here, but I'll just have to try harder. (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) On the seventh day of the major Israeli offensive, this message is finally given: <URL: (URL) > Let's hope this aid in bringing peace to the region. Fredrik (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I, for one, could use some clarification here. I certainly had no intention of offending anyone of any culture or race or etc. I am for peace. I do not see myself as favoring either side in violence. If my "Romeo and Juliet" solution seemed in (...) (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The US took control of a route to Central Asian Oil and Gas fields that does not pass through Russia nor Iran? Particularly interesting, when we know Bush has personal interests in this sector. Pedro (22 years ago, 4-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I shall have to change my question! You may consider it a "victory", but which of the *stated* war aims have been met? ;) Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 5-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I have not read his speech in detail yet, but I must admit I was impressed with some of what he had to say. Particularly his mention of pre-1967 borders. Scott A (22 years ago, 5-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'd have to know what were the stated war aims. IMO, all statements on that issue were too vague to be comprehensible. :-/ And frankly, this conflict still does not fit my definition of "war". Maybe "intervention" is more like it. And there is (...) (22 years ago, 5-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I do hope that you'll choose to clarify this. Not only because I'd be interested to hear what was "scary" about Richard's note but also because I think that to whatever extent you occupy an administrative role, throwaway comments like this (...) (22 years ago, 6-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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I think that every single assertion in this note is incorrect. I'm not sure that I've ever seen that happen before. Oh, no...I was wrong. The first two sentences are reasonable. Chris (...) (22 years ago, 6-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: volume v quality (was Re: Conflict in the Middle East)
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(...) Until this thread came up, your own postings here were pretty scant. It was quite wonderful. "Thanks for making this a better place! ;)" Chris (22 years ago, 6-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The situation is indeed very complicated. So I don't understand why you present views which are, in my opinion, very simplified and black-and-white. Fredrik (22 years ago, 6-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I like the direction of Bush's statements. Bush's has earlier expressed an attitude of understandment towards the Israeli military actions, which appears to have gone by now. Bush's statements may be a result of his need for continued Arab (...) (22 years ago, 6-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree with you. Fredrik (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ...and agree with you. Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) In our culture, we are mostly brought up to believe that life is precious and that suicide isn't a viable option. We are shocked and dismayed when people kill (...) (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What exactly are these warriors promised from the afterlife? How is their belief about the ultimate sacrifice different than our own? Many Americans have made suicidal attacks "in the line of honor." How and why is it different? I think that (...) (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The fact that these attacks are suicide attacks is irrelevant. The issue is the deliberate and unjustifiable killing of civilians. (...) What do padres promise your country’s troops as they go into battle? Hell and damnation? I think not! (...) (22 years ago, 8-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well I guess it is only now that the press is getting access: (URL) read Suzanne Goldenberg's report. She describes the camp as "a vast expanse of rubble": (URL) A (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) camp, a town, a camp-within-a-town, a town-within-a-camp, or something else? I ask because I've heard it referred to alternatively as any of the above, so I'm unclear of what sort of area is at stake. That doesn't in any way reduce the loss (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It's sort of both. Jenin was originally a town. The refugee camp was built next to the town decades ago, and has slowly evolved into a town itself. According to my understandment of the recent events, it was the refugee camp (which is more (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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This is from my memory, so don’t recite too loudly! Dan Jassim probably could give your question more justice. I have never visited but… I think the short answer is "both". On the edge of the town of Jenin exists a refugee camp which has probably (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Since I have never been to your land, a comparison to the BBC would be helpful for me since I do have some sense where they fall into place. So I guess one could say that these people live either actually at war, or in a de facto state of war, (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:Guo8A8.3J7@lugnet.com... (...) probably (...) edge of (...) refugees (...) the (...) the (...) 6-day (...) that (...) shantytown (...) Independence (...) the land (...) Quite a bit of video (...) (22 years ago, 16-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Impartiality, like beauty, is always in the eye of the beholder. (Re: Conflict in the Middle East)
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(...) The BBC has a charter that says it must be 100% independent/impartial... and this is checked quite thoroughly. The Guardian is an independent newspaper (owned by a trust) which is free to print what it wishes without being libellous. It (...) (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Look at Israel’s history since ’47. Look at the current conflict. Do you think Sharon sent in the army and imposed a virtual press blackout with a plan to drink sweet tea, hand out fruit and talk peace? Really? The Palestinian's agree it (...) (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:GupGzn.7J5@lugnet.com... (...) you (...) with a (...) their (...) use (...) record. (...) I wasn't making any judgement. Just saying what was reported on the BBC news. lawrence (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Impartiality, like beauty, is always in the eye of the beholder. (Re: Conflict in the Middle East)
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Scott: Many thanks for the information about the Guardian. The hard copy will not be necessary, but I appreciate the offer very much. -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You are entitled to your own opinion, however wrong it is (as in this case). I've seen that happen lots of times before. -John (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Y'know, these ad hominem attacks are quite annoying. Do y'all think you improve understanding of a pointedly pro-Israel perspective without providing any kind of REAL argument to favor your views? James' original assertions were tripe, practically (...) (22 years ago, 17-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The Palestinian people have been taught, almost since birth, to hate Israel and Jews. You can’t find a map in a Palestinian school that shows the nation of Israel. The hatred is deep and intense … and no negotiations or negotiated peace (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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(...) People that prize peace do not express themselves in terms of "complete military victory." And you think I make scarey comments? I think Israel already has complete superiority by way of arms. Why don't they just march on in and commit (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Can you substantiate this using an independent source? My understanding is that schools in places like Jenin are mostly run by UNRWA, are you saying that they operate in the manner you describe? From the UNRWA: ==+== The Palestine refugee (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Scariness (was Re: Conflict in the Middle East)
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(...) I was tempted to reply to James with "this is one of the scariest, most disturbing posts I've ever read on LUGNET."... but I thought I had better not! ;) Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Maybe because what James said happens to be true-- you need to think about history to appreciate its wisdom. I will go on record as to saying that Richard's post in question was probably the most disturbing I've ever read in this forum as (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Perhaps you could explain this a little more so that the "wisdom" may be appreciated? (...) Perhaps you could explain (as I think nobody else has despite requests) why it is so disturbing? Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scariness (was Re: Conflict in the Middle East)
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(...) quoteth James (...) Victory can bring us peace? What, at the annihilation of one side or the other? True, that's peace, since you now have no one that disagrees with you. Further, if you think victory doesn't necessitate a complete total party (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I said *think* about it. Think of major conflicts and how they were eventually resolved. (...) Well, it's pretty self-evident IMO. If you don't realize it right away, I doubt any amount of explanation would help you understand anyway. -John (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And since this topic/discussion/issue is so convoluted to begin with, *not* clarifying what a person meant will really help the situation. True understanding comes with discourse, thru talking about it, with listening to other people's POV. (...) (22 years ago, 18-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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(...) First let it be said that I don't enjoy the idea of war, I have never personally fought in one and hope I never do, nor do I hope my son has to. (I did spend 5 years with the Sheriff's but that's a whole different kind of battle). What I am (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Scariness (was Re: Conflict in the Middle East)
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(...) :-O Scott A (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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(...) Sorry, I may have misunderstood your tone a little(!). (...) Scotland & England worked it out in the end... Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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(...) As did the British Empire and the United States. Why? There was no 'clear victory' of either side in that war ('cause like, Canada's still here :) ) but, bottom line, imho,-- education. First it was war. Then realizing that neither party was (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes: <snip> (...) Huh? I'm pretty sure that there was a clear victor in the American Revolution, otherwise our money would still have a picture of the Queen on it. (no real comment on why Canada is here (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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(snip) (...) Interestingly, UNRWA ran an ad in my paper today: (URL) A (snip) (...) (snip) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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"Scott A" <eh105jb@mx1.pair.com> wrote in message news:Gut7s7.IoD@lugnet.com... (...) Except when they meet at Wembley :-) Though I see there is talk of them re-introducing the Home Championship Smart move - they need someone to finish of the (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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(...) like Independance Day--I really liked the Presidents speech - the world united with one voice--'we shall not go quietly into the night...' etc. Sometimes I wish there was an external threat to humanity, cause that would put all these petty (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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(...) Yeah, it was especially great the way he exhorted us to rage, rage against the dying of the light. Dave! (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Conflict in the Middle East
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(...) Um, arguably if you were to place the AR in the context of the overall NA colonial struggle, as just one part of the entire multiparty "war" (other parts included the French and Indian war, and the War of 1812, as well as undeclared naval wars (...) (22 years ago, 19-Apr-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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