 | | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Then you need to pick a side to stand on. Are you saying that increased gun control *does* lead to an increased crimerate, or are you saying that increased gun control is irrelevant to an increased crimerate? If the former, then your statement (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) But again, this is just anecdotal. What of the lessons taught by the Warsaw Ghetto? One gun against many. The purpose of keeping arms is hopefully cumulative amongst many partipants, not just a few lone nutters. In quantity, many rifles make a (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) You are absolutely right Dave! The statistics do not show any positive or negative one way or the other for or against gun control. The funny thing is that only further increases my belief that gun control is all about Government control over (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) Oh here that is again-- And I will point out that, again, the Constitution wasn't written yesterday, it was written before paved roads, street lights, and Hostess Twinkies(tm)! So if we (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Right now, it is easier for someone to break the law and purchase a Russian made machinegun than it is for someone to follow the law and purchase a US made handgun. (...) Now why would anyone want a cupcake if they couldn't eat it? Maybe it (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Well, okay. But in that case you need to jettison your argument that increased gun control leads to (or causes) increased crime. (...) I'm not sure that I recall a sustained conflict between the full might of the military and either of those (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Heh. Our last gun control exchange ended with us becoming pals. Who knows what would happen next? You're 100% correct that my examples were anecdotal, which was kind of my point, too. You're also right that a quantity of rifles makes a (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) That is pretty much what I just said. (...) Well the Israelis are using tanks and helicopters. (...) No, the constitution allows the government to call on the people when neccessary. (...) So? (...) Nukes are overrated. One of those defense (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Well, okay. Are you hereby abandoning your previous arguments, in which you've asserted that increased gun control breeds increased crime? I just want to be clear on this. (...) Right, but is it a sustained military action (a la Desert Storm (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Yes, but gun control does not reduce crime either. (...) If they could stop it through sustained military action, why didn't they? (...) Then the Government must have done something really stupid (...) Make a choice? (...) Yeah I would say (...) (21 years ago, 17-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) <snip> (...) What it does do is reduce the number of fatalities/injuries from bullets. Dave K (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Lots of things can kill you -- like automobiles for example. We keep dangerous things around because they are useful -- like automobiles for example. People can be taught to use dangerous yet useful things without harm to anyone, or at least (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) But, see -- I don't agree with him either. And the gun, operating as an equalizer, puts at least some political power back into the hands of the meek and peace-loving. Now, I am not advocating revolution -- we are yet far from that I hope (and (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Oh, the Israeli army could stop it using military action. Just line every one up and murder them. That'd stop the problem using "military" action. They are acting restrained. They are not using Napalm on the entire west bank, or suchlike...or (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Thank You. So, you should have to register your gun, and you should have to pass a test to be able to use it before you are allowed to do so. That is NO DIFFERENT than with your car. Gun Control. If you are found to be "responsible" then the (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) At least some disagreement here... I don't want to ever register the weapon. I should have to show at least some proficiency, but not to an excessive degree. Societal interest is such that I should show that I am not a danger when using a gun, (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Ah, yes. But you are in the minority, at least as far as some countries go. (example being Canada). You do follow the law with regards to your car right? I assume (if you drive, not sure that you do, since I don't), that you have a license, (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) What's the purpose of a car--to get me to my job, to get me home, to wash on Saturday and watch it rained upon on Sunday. What's the purpose of a knife? To open boxes, cut my food, chop the cabbage I threw into my crock pot yesterday. What's (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Yes. Protection. Why do you give an example of an unintended use of a gun? By that reasoning we should ban driving due to all of the auto related fatalities (far more BTW than deaths by handguns...) (...) By the same token, gun manufacturers (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Do you honestly beleive that a criminal is using a registered gun in the first place? By the way, just a little history for you: Registered gun oweners were the first group of Jews rounded up by the Nazis. By the time they realized what was (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Yes, autos do cause far more deaths than guns. However, they seem to have far more use too. (...) "just mind your own business". Please do so...and stop insiuating that you can stop something that you are unlikely to ever be a part of. (armed (...) (21 years ago, 18-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) You might want to double check that number, because it would mean that the murder rate increased since the UK imposed tight gun control laws. Not exactly supportive of your argument. Basiclly all of the data I have seen shows there is no (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) You ask *any* politician--"Hey Mr. 'We voted you in', do you worry that when you make bad decisions in office you will probably get shot *because of* your bad decisions?" I think Mr Politician is more worried about his walking around in (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Reading comprehension 101--the purpose of a car is not to cause any harm. The purpose of a gun is. If you want to weigh in on *accidental* deaths of automobiles, then we're off on a differnt topic. Shooting someone with a gun is not an (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Lets look at homicides due to guns in each situation, shall we? Because you saw something somewhere and the 'whole arguement is completely invalid'? Mike, you're better than that. Dave K (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Maybe I just haven't seen the right studies or something, but you have no real proof or data to support that statement, do you? It's just fuzzy anti-gun speak that doesn't deal with actual issues but with imagined public safety protections. I (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Well, besides being logical and such, there would be less deaths by hammers if there were less hammers. Just as, as John points out, there would be less deaths by cars if there were less cars. Do I need a study to show me the infallible logic (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) You're right, I should know to phrase things better. All of the data I have seen everywhere (save the occasional pro-gun loony website that shows a positive benefit to greater availability of guns) shows there is no correlation between the (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Peace without freedom is oppression and/or slavery for "the good of society." (...) Except that most of the Black Market guns come from overseas smuggling, not domestic theft. It is cheaper, easier, and safer on a large scale. -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
Okay, fine -- if your point is that the purpose of a gun is to kill or destroy a thing, then that's basically an undisputed fact. That it is the only utility of the gun is a separate matter. I still think that the gun's power for destruction is the (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Protection through deterrence. Ask any criminal whom they would rather robb-- an armed person or an unarmed person. Of course it's true that guns can be lethal-- that is precisely why they are effective deterrents. (...) You are assuming that (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Again with the "Jeffersonian" speak. I would point out that Jefferson livd 200+ years ago and some of the ideas from that time may not be valid today. Again (and again and again) it is your national forces that's protecting your 'freedom and (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) No, by definition a criminal is exactly that. However, see the hammer argument, and the fact that the majority of murders are committed by people who KNOW each other. And Alcohol is often a factor...it's harder to kill someone with a set of (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) I was looking for a spot to jump in to this debate too, and I don't know if this is it, but what the heck I will butt in anyway. I know and understand the Jeffersonian arguement that citizens need to be armed against an oppressive government, (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Now come on. Pay attention. (URL) (...) Please get your facts straight. In tin-pot dictator type countries only the government and police have guns. That is why they can oppress and enslave their people. (...) Exactly we have guns too. (...) (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Did you even read my post? The gun owners were the first group of Jews rounded up for precisely that reason. (...) Words on paper (laws) protect me less than the police do. Police do not stop crime over 99 percent of the time. They simply (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) We're not? Are you sure about that? I'm not. (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) That reasoning isn't entirely sound, and it omits relevant factors. If there are fifty deaths-by-hammer, then we need to ascertain how many hammers were involved. If one guy went on a hammering spree with one ball-peen, then the elimination of (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Costello wrote: I don't have a real problem with your overall assertion, but you attempt a few points that really don't benefit your argument: (...) You're suggesting that your wife should have brandished her (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) I don't live "without freedom" or in a "tinpot dictatorship". Get over yourself. Face the facts--there are *democracies* that work without the citizens being armed. And yet you can't deal with that one. You;re doing an end-run around the (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Did those "right to bear arms" people decide to do what you think you would, and use those arms? no, they didn't. Therefore, the arms were irrelevant at best. (...) You take them to court. You take them to the highest court you can. There have (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) You know, appealing to ideas in a Jeffersonian mold is an appeal to authority, and as perhaps "THEE" central philosophical figure of the foundations of my country, I consider Jefferson an authority whose wisdom is not easily overcome -- and (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Gee, condescend much? I have no problem if you want to stick your head out and place it neatly on the chopping block of history, just don't ask me to do the same thing. That's really the crux of the problem: you have your opinion and I have my (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip> (...) There it is. Koresh wannabe. We're done. Dave K (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Wonderful solution, and I can tell you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you know how hard it is to fight the power? I have done it, and won some and lost most. Not fun, not at all. I'd provide more details but actually it's my own (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) "Koresh wannabe" ??? Oh, get over yourself. Koresh was innocent of anything except bad judgement in thinking that he and his followers could peaceably coexist in the local community, and bad judgement in thinking that because he had good (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Gee -- that's pretty offensive to me. Run out of ideas for arguments or something, Kooties? Too bad we can't propel ourselves 100 years into the future and see how the U.S. is turning out under the rule of near despots with the collective (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Hmmm, in the main I hope to raise questions -- not assert "truths" that I admittedly don't have real evidence of from my particular vantage point. I don't have truths, I have anecdotes -- but I do think it's closer to truth than what is (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) And yet I'm the one attributed to the guy with the beard with the sign 'the end is near'. I'm not the one that has to get over myself. I'm not the one who doesn't understand society at large. Narrow minded people who justify their irrational (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Not really--you can't debate with someone who is not willing to listen, or at worst, delusional. So on this particular debate, we're done. (...) And your gun in your house will prevent that how? But brought up again and not dealt with. (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) So do I, as whole. I'm talking about Shrub -- a guy that has the whole world on the edge of it's collective seat. Who'll be next in our drive towards empire? Who's going to be preemptively nuked? I'm supposed to think that world is a great (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Okay, and I am "delusional" because I trust in the wisdom of Thomas Jefferson and the whole of the Founding Fathers of my country? Who knew?! Do you know what the word "delusional means? It can be defined as: a false belief strongly held in (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) You are very correct that my anecedotal examples might not always be the best. You are also correct that this bum was not a threat, he actually was pretty nice, giving me directions after I tossed him some coins (although with my ignorance of (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) My doubts are on record--the guys policies are morinic at best and he should be booted out of office. Once all the 'facts' are exposed, you will see "Iraqi-gate" for what it is--a fiasco right from the start--botched intelligence, (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Sure, it's been discussed, but what hasn't been discussed? And it's not like the entire argument is stagnant, either; my opinion has evolved somewhat through several revisitings of the gun control debate, just as others have come to understand (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Okay, let me get this straight -- you are angry that I have patience that these things will work themselves out peacefully and without the need for violence and revolution? So what you are arguing is that I can only be pro-gun if I happen to (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip for comedic effect> (...) lol, I quickly scanned that first sentence and came up with something entirely different;-) JOHN (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) How many virtual Timmies can dance on the head of a pin... (since you asked) (snip the rest because... well, because you're right, darn it, Dave!) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Point ceded. (...) Hey, it had to happen eventually. Nice use of Dave! with the parentheses, by the way. Dave! (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Humanity, yes. Most people are good and kind and honest and want only to live their lives unmolested, living by the golden rule or by the wiccan rule or by libertarian principles (even if they can't articulate any of them clearly, that's still (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Who's the very best???? I ask you, who? You know I am! There is no one better than I am at ending a sentence with Dave! No one! (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Secret Vices (was Re: Swift was Right!)
|
|
(...) In an attempt to take this thread about Koreans eating their own kind into an even weirder direction, I present y'all with some of my secret vices and guilty pleasures: 00. Anything choreographed by Bob Fosse -- The Aloof! 01. Almost anything (...) (21 years ago, 19-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) I think I will agree with Lar+ here. -but, I don't think we (Dave and myself) are going to convert any of you...you percive a need to have a security blanket, that we feel is unneeded, and unwarrented. As long as we are free to talk about it, (...) (21 years ago, 20-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) No there aren't. Canada, Britian, and Austrailia all have civilians with "hunting" guns. While those are not as effective for combat, they are still useable in that fashion. Throughout history there is no such thing as a democracy where only (...) (21 years ago, 20-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Not so secret vices Was Re: Secret Vices (was Re: Swift was Right!)
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip> (...) For me -Commodore products, 'specially the 64 -Sailor Moon and Utena -Babylon 5 -Karen McDougall -watching Clooney in "Oh Brother..." -pre "ILM" sci fi movies like "The Day the Earth (...) (21 years ago, 20-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Not so secret vices Was Re: Secret Vices (was Re: Swift was Right!)
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti wrote: <snip> (...) Ooops, ftx fomratted! For me -Commodore products, 'specially the 64 -Sailor Moon and Utena -Babylon 5 -Karen McDougall -watching Clooney in "Oh Brother..." -pre "ILM" sci fi movies (...) (21 years ago, 20-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek wrote: <snip> (...) Sorry Larry, I 'm calling you on this one. All points thrown at me, acknowledged and refuted, as far as I can see, and went beyond. And yet the points I made were ignored, dismissed (...) (21 years ago, 20-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) You da man!!! (21 years ago, 20-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) Sorry, you haven't refuted much of anything in this debate, you can't just dismiss Jefferson as irrelevant and consider that a refutation. In essence, that's what you're doing. (21 years ago, 20-Jun-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) And who would have thought that the very next Attorney General would be so much worse than either of them? Dave! (17 years ago, 26-Jul-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
| |
| | Re: Swift was Right! (He just named the wrong people...)
|
|
(...) "Let the eagle soar, like he's never soared before." (17 years ago, 26-Jul-07, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
|
