 | | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Yes, that as well! Grr.... >:( Scott S. ___...___ Scott E. Sanburn-> ssanburn@cleanweb.net Systems Administrator/CAD Operator-Affiliated Engineers -> (URL) Page -> (URL) Page -> (URL) (25 years ago, 14-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Well I never claimed to be dogmatic about anything :) I took the (URL) quiz and I have edged closer to the Libertarian and Moderate spheres, but it still labels me left-liberal. (Personal Self Gov 80%, Economic Self Gov 40%) * Businesses and (...) (25 years ago, 14-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 24hour Amnesty on personal comments
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I concur. :-) -- Have fun! John The Legos you've been dreaming of... (URL) weird Lego site: (URL) Franks wrote in message ... (...) viewed (...) won't (...) (25 years ago, 14-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Scott E. Sanburn wrote in message <387E4253.33A064C2@c...eb.net>... (...) these (...) fullest (...) final (...) <rant against people> And they write on the walls, too!! </rap> -- Have fun! John The Legos you've been dreaming of... (URL) weird Lego (...) (25 years ago, 14-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Frank Filz wrote in message <387DFF2B.5B98@minds...ng.com>... (...) Thank you Frank! -- Have fun! John The Legos you've been dreaming of... (URL) weird Lego site: (URL) (25 years ago, 14-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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Dave Schuler wrote in message ... (...) nonsense (...) you (...) Deal with your problems if you have any, too. I am dealing with my own as quickly as I can, and I don't mind you pointing them out to me (1) (well, sometimes!). To help me with my "sad (...) (25 years ago, 14-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) he is (...) from! Do (...) automatically (...) Well, I must have took it the wrong way, but it sure looked like you were complaining that you might, under a Libertarian system, actually have to spend more of (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: RFC: An Alternative..
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(...) The weekend sounds fine with me, thanks for considering it! I hope that you didn't mind the dedication :) What seems funny at 5am, isn't always. Richard (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 24hour Amnesty on personal comments
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(...) No, I just wonder why I, do this. It is very frustrating sometimes, I will have to learn better self control! Nothing against you, Richard, just me. Sometimes people to get personal, and ask for it as well, so it is something to strive for. (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 24hour Amnesty on personal comments
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(...) Basically it is just supposed to be a fun self-regulartory idea, it's not saying that people can't make comments if they wish, but that (2 so far!) people have made a pledge to try not to make personal comments. I'd hate to think I'd stopped (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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(...) IMO, shareholders and the purchacing power of a few knowledgable consumers isn't enough to control corperations. What are the evils that corperations *could* do, if they were allowed? * Education - biased or limited, creating clones to work in (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 24hour Amnesty on personal comments
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(...) Well, I sometimes wonder why I contribute at all to off topic. It always seems to be the same. Maybe I will avoid off topic for at least 24 hours, and concentrate on why were are the: the brick. Scott S. (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Your comment about a lack of respect for property is a good one. To those opposed to the Libertarian ideal, think about the effect that government not respecting property rights transforms the populace into not respecting property rights (or (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government vs Corporations - Was: (Re: Art Debate)
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<387E402C.5DDB2400@c...anweb.net> <FoAMsH.xF@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Libertarianism expects that companies will be held liable for the damages they do. Unfortuanately, government (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 24hour Amnesty on personal comments
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(...) :) I was going to add a "PS. if you don't agree to this then you're all idiots" but I wasn't sure that it was in the best possible taste :) (...) I don't suppose that I am innocent either! Richard (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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Jasper Janssen wrote in message <388a3894.72786960@l...et.com>... (...) In your opinion. (...) Not too long ago, you said you'd ruled it out. So, you are still willing to consider it? Glad to hear it. (...) Is there an empty state around? I guess (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: 24hour Amnesty on personal comments
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(...) You doofus! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard! Just kidding... 8^) (...) Having been on both sides of such attacks, I think this is a good proposal, and I'm willing to adhere to it. Dave! (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Government vs Corporations - Was: (Re: Art Debate)
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(...) You are wrong. In my case, at least, I don't think that. What I *do* think is that corporations will take whatever advantages they are allowed to take, just as governments will. Libertarian theory does not account for this, to my satisfaction. (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | 24hour Amnesty on personal comments
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I propose that anyone making a personal or derogatory comment should be viewed to have "lost" the argument, no matter what or who it is. This isn't helping the debate and maybe if we all cool off for a while we won't see the need to make such (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Dave, (...) Hmm... going in Ann Arbor (MI), Lansing (MI), and Ohio State (Columbus), there were a lot of hoodlums, trying to pick on the college people. The worst was Ohio State, the East side of the campus, right on the border, were some of the (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Android vs. Droid vs. Automaton (Re: 4x2ReVu: 7141 Naboo Fighter)
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James Wilson wrote in message ... (...) right, (...) I won't ask. (...) Not quite true, IMO. R2 has some human characteristics. He hears and talks. He walks. He has excellent emotional programming. These are features of humans, among other things. (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John DiRienzo writes a lot of unhelpful nonsense ultimately decaying to a simple ad hominem, yet again. John, are you wholly unfamiliar with the conventions of interpersonal communication? You seem unable to mount an (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Government vs Corporations - Was: (Re: Art Debate)
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(...) Yes, I know about this, and have read about it in history class. I was talking about present day examples. I think this century has been instrumental in cleaning up the abuses of corporations in the early days, such as above. Compare a GM (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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Dave Schuler wrote in message ... (...) (and (...) middle-of-the- (...) to (...) view (...) Your a moderate what? (...) So (...) Good memory. And sadly, you (actually Jasper said this first) "aren't anywhere near ready for it" may be true. (...) me. (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: RFC: An Alternative..
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(...) The shift of power from top-down to bottom-up is a major difference straight off. The Social Groupings that I named will sound familiar, as we do have a structure already in place for community and society.. I could have used different terms (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Scott: (...) restrictions (...) True enough--I was just trying to illustrate that State College isn't typically some crazy town of hoodlums (or is that hoodla?). (...) Some were, because they were caught on video. I don't know what the final count (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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(...) No, this tone that corporations have some unwieldy power of the masses is a joke. Tell me what power they have! Does GM go to your house, burst through your door, place you under arrest, and take your possessions? Does AOL pull you over for no (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Android vs. Droid vs. Automaton (Re: 4x2ReVu: 7141 Naboo Fighter)
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Anyone else see the humor in debating the semantics of words used in a fictional account of events in "a galaxy far, far away" ? Maybe their English has a different OED than ours. Sheesh, they don't use "parsec" right, either, but let's not go (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) I don't want to go out on a limb, but just because it happened in a fairly conservative town doesn't mean idiots, rioters, evil and corrupt people won't do things. I know a few conservative people that I can't stand sometimes. Doing these (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Jasper Janssen wrote in message <388835c3.72065940@l...et.com>... (...) Considering that by the time you buy something from a retailer, it has been taxed 5 or 6 times, I think you'd be able to do quite a bit more. -- Have fun! John The Legos you've (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Jasper Janssen wrote in message <3887351c.71898961@l...et.com>... (...) I am glad you are familiar enough with it to point it out. You are right. It happens, that in my parts, in speaking, we usually leave out the "not". Similar to those horrible (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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(...) Corporations can take away anything we allow them to take away, in the same way that government can take away anything we allow them to. Examples? I don't see why they're necessary since we're so far into the realm of theoretical, but ok. Coal (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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Richard, (...) Well, I think money (Which is a form of trading) has been around since the beginning of mankind. If man has nothing to trade with, which is 100% tax, I don't think it would work. I would that would happen, but we will see. (...) Well, (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Game Theory and the like...
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(...) I saw a program once on game theory as it applied to this sort of thing. Fascinating (to me), though my background in such matters is limited, and my knowledge of statistics amounts to knowing that I will *probably* be able to catch the bus (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) To be fair, I have to point out that Prisoners Dilemma requires participants to be unable to communicate - if you don't know what the other person is going to do then the safest strategy is the one that gives less consistent drawbacks. Even if (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: RFC: An Alternative..
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Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) that (...) extra (...) Marxist-inspired (...) workers (...) who (...) choose (...) in (...) there (...) part, (...) when (...) As (...) feared (...) makes (...) When (...) that (...) social (...) What I read (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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(...) I think what you mean to say is that the government is not accountable at present, whereas corperations would be directly accountable to the people who buy their products, and shareholders. It's still not a solid argument IMO, but it's the (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: RFC: An Alternative..
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Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) that (...) extra (...) Marxist-inspired (...) workers (...) who (...) choose (...) in (...) there (...) part, (...) when (...) As (...) feared (...) makes (...) When (...) that (...) social (...) What I read (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Nor am I asserting that all humans are bad--I'm merely pointing out that people's behavior will expand, so to speak, to fill the boundaries allowed to them. In addition, you've given spot examples to shore up your argument as well--how can you (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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(...) Stop thinking in absolutes. Incapable isn't the problem, it's that there's not enough of it. (...) Absolutes again. Show me that Libertopia is better, and I'll convert. Make it a practical example. Why don't all ya libertarians move to one (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Hey, Jasper, we might agree on something! ;) Scott S. (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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(...) It would just be something new, something unthought of, not contradictory. (...) I said that there are people who find less money makes them feel freer. Whether or not they are delusional is a different matter. Anyway - that isn't even almost (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) The problem is who _does_ get a say in it. Are you saying that if, say, only criminals are willing to pay for schools, they should be allowed to raise innocent children into criminals (...) Not a bad idea. (...) Anarchy == no government. A (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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James, (...) Can you please give me examples on how corporations can take away your freedom, your liberty, your rights, etc.? The government can and does. Scott S. ___...___ Scott E. Sanburn-> ssanburn@cleanweb.net Systems Administrator/CAD (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) And be able to do much less with it? Jasper (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) ObPetPeeve: No we bloody well don't. The expression is "couldn't care less", ya damn buffoon. For whatever reason, this particular one _really_ grates. I suppoose because you're saying exactly the opposite of what you're trying to convey. (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) And your point is? I think you're just proving the contention that no system is perfect. I also have to say that the only "homeless" children I have ever seen in the US have been being served by homeless shelters. I have never seen a child (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) You say this as if it is necessarily true. I haven't yet seen even Larry produce any evidence that this is in fact the case. So replace "will" with "may" for the moment, please. (...) Prisoner's dilemma. If you're the _one_ not paying when (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) My point is that since we aren't perfect, there will always be a few jerks. Constraining the whole society for a few jerks seems irrational. Look at how the current "zero tolerance" of weapons is working in the schools. Kids are getting (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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(...) I've been avoiding this debate, since there seem to be a lot of personal stuff flying about, but The above is one of the principle things that I can't quite fathom about libertarian thinking. Why is it that "government will take advantage of (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) If you don't look, you won't see them. I've seen homeless children _here_. In the Netherlands. Where there are charities _and_ government-sponsored institutions _galore_ to mtake care of them. Denying reality won't make it go away. Jasper (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Larry may not want this, but there are plenty of libertarians who do want exactly that. Jasper (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) That's it. You've just convinced me to oppose libertarianism in the US with every breath, instead of just opposing it _here_. Think about wqhat you're _saying_, man. Non-initiation of force? Jasper (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) In terms of total taxes raised vs GNP, NL comes out at around 25%, whereas the US comes in at just over 30%. That good enough? (...) Not really -- preaching too hard is more likely to turn people away from you than towards you, 9in this day (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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Dave, (...) Well, that is why I favor the school choice (Vouchers, etc.) I think we should be able to have our children go to the school we deem best, not what the government thinks. I think school choice will be a big topic in the coming years. I (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Hmm. The riots in Seattle were from WTO disagreements, wasn't it? People, no matter what they believe in, sometimes do evil things. I think some the riots were caused by the civil unrest of the country, which have ironed out somewhat. I think (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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Scott: (...) If that's what I implied, it was unintentional. Actually, your argument about a liberal-leaning school (or any -leaning school) supports my concerns about a Libertopian school system, simply changing the flavor of the -leaning! Dave! (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) A very convenient piece of gerrymandering. (...) Okay, now it's my turn to have painted with too broad a brush, and you point out some powerful counterexamples. The unifying factor I see in your cases is some natural catastrophe or extremity (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate
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(...) it's better than nothing, whereas you believe that nothing would be better. So do I, by the way. One of the worst beliefs most politicians have is that in response to a perceived or actual crisis, it's always better to Do Something than Stand (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Who says a single individual or corporation is going to be running most schools? Currently the government gets most of its money from the middle class. These people will still have this money to spend on services. I know that I would be at (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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Dave, (...) Tell me if this is wrong, but this discussion seems to imply that our current school system is completely neutral on things, which is not the case, based on what I know. Scott S. ___...___ Scott E. Sanburn-> ssanburn@cleanweb.net Systems (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Bzzt. Wrong! No, both of my parents were registered Democrats. I looked at what the parties stood for, looked at my religious beliefs, and concluded the Republican party is more to what I believe in. Though I am definitely more to the (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) That is what I was thinking as well. (...) Interesting... (...) I am wondering, especially Matt Miller, view on rights. He keeps calling on them, but doesn't really say what he thinks. Scott S. P.S. Larry, I read most of the Libertarian (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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(...) Minority as in a small part. Sorry, I thought you were saying minority as in African American, etc. My mistake. (...) Interesting, but I disagree with it, simply because the government enforces it. (...) That would contradict the entire world (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?]
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Matt, (...) Well, going on the UN, and other organizations, like EU, etc. I would hope the US never joins it. (...) This whole rights discussion is pretty funny, Matt. Let's see, if corporations have no rights, than we should not have rights, nor (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Yep, that was a cop-out pure and simple.. as I've already stated in that thread. Anyway, I have tried to make up for that with (URL), if you'd like to help me pick out the holes in that, then I'd be more than happy to take the heat for a (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) My point was that I agree absolutely that it is foolish to contribute to charity without some sense of where one's money will wind up but I don't feel I can trust a corporation or a single wealthy individual to fund an educational system (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: RFC: An Alternative..
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(...) Which flow of money? Apart from the minimal tax (admistration+State Responsibility fees (which pays for national defence and other things of that nature)), the flow of money is entirely up to the aggregate group. Ie, a community, town, region, (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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(...) Two things. First off, how did the tax break get there in the first place? Second, the tax break just makes it cheaper to contribute to an approved charity, it doesn't improve the actual bottom line. (...) To be honest, I have yet to see any (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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(...) Many people and corporations contribute to charities simply for the tax write-off. Beyond that, some people contribute, I have no doubt, because of a sense of spiritual duty or because it's proper to do--and that's laudable, certainly. Maybe (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) (Banging head against wall) Why oh why was I so silly as to begin reading this thread. Why not just tie 'em to the land and call them serfs? Heck, let's admit that they'll never amount to anything and put them in factories at age 6. Let's (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Frank Filz wrote in message ... (...) the (...) realistically (...) that (...) necessarily (...) all (...) so (...) everyone (...) I sort of thought it was hopeless too, Frank. This is directed to those who have been "debating" us. I decided, since (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) the (...) of (...) has (...) Don't agree? then why don't you form a "Save the Winos" party? I am in AA (1), and its my first responsibility to stay sober. My utmost responsibility thereafter is to help other (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: RFC: An Alternative..
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(...) Hm, interesting. We seem to actually be making some progress here. At a quick read, Richard's proposal sounds like Liberatopia to me. I agree with Larry that there needs to be more understanding of the flow of money and power. It's interesting (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) I don't believe that myself either, in fact I've no idea where it came from! Do you believe that just because I don't agree 100% with you that automatically makes me socialist, communist, or any other leftist label? I'm tired trying to argue (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Maybe I need to re-read what you wrote, but perhaps you could expand and clarify what you were trying to say. (...) It seems to me we are on the verge of corporations running the schools anywise. Look at all the product advertising which is (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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(...) If individuals and corporations are incapable of charity and community duty, then why do we have it currently? As far as I know, PEOPLE created our government. You don't seem to be preaching the "god" factor. Also, I see "deliberate, (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Actually, whatever the intent, I think it comes across as an implication of rather than a distinction from Utopia (...) I used the word interchangeably, and as far as I was concerned they were the same. You're right, however, and I apologize (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Please use our term. It's our meme, not yours, and using some other word means you are talking about some other thing, which we don't have to defend since it's your idea rather than ours. Libertopia as a name was chosen specifically to drive (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) That's an interesting assertion, but it has nothing to do with what I said. (...) Obviously I'm not suggesting that all "charity" is or should be driven by blind funds--that would be akin to throwing money down a well. My question, however, (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff
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(...) Liberama is disqualified because it relies on the assumption that in its great society people and corporations will be motivated by higher ethics and community responsibility--an assumption which is fine on paper but has never come close to (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: RFC: An Alternative..
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Need to dig in deeper (over the weekend?) but... I think this has a lot of merit. Not perfect. Nothing is. But better, perhaps than what we have now. And not that different from Libertopia! Where I see an area in need of further exploration is in (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Goodness of Man? (was: Re: Merry Christmas from the Libertarian Party
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Dave Schuler wrote in message ... (...) up (...) Great point, Dave! The people should have nothing to do with it. Let the cows pay for it. Or maybe the mice will pick up the tab. But, absolutely, positively don't let the people pay for anything! -- (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) too, (...) that (...) I should control myself, but I'm evil! (1) Sorry about that. Seriously, why don't you answer his question??? Or, was "more government spending" the correct answer? 1 - I admit, I am not (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Richard Franks wrote in message ... (...) to (...) Your posts are moving from annoying to hilarious. What have we got now? Teachers who could care less! Why? I care about kids, and I know most people do. I know most people can't live off a teacher's (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | RFC: An Alternative..
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Disclaimers ===...=== First off, I don't have the benefit of being incredibly smart, so there are bound to be holes. But even the simplest idea can spark others into greater feats of insight and imagination - hopefully that will be the case. I (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Dave Schuler wrote in message ... (...) sense. (...) through (...) agree, (...) I (...) sizable (...) get (...) So what's the problem here? If a child's parents are so incapable of nurturing the child for success, why should they have much if any (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Dave Schuler wrote in message ... (...) in (...) family) (...) If no one wanted to help them, then how in heck do we end up with a law helping them? Who passed the law in the first place if no one wanted to help them? I really doubt ANYONE (no (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: ("life affirming" == "no initiation of force") == "all rigihts are property rights"?
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(...) I'm not sure at what level of detail you want these answered, but I'll take a stab at it. (What does it mean to manipulate matter?) It means, at the most basic of levels, that I am exercising my will on my surroundings. (What does it mean to (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Living in Scotland and all.. you'd think I'd be the one with that message ;) I have a lot (maybe total) sympathy with that viewpoint though. (...) Because I spent my mid-to-latter teenage years doing so before deciding that it was a wrong and (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | stuff (was: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Yeah, actually, I thought the reason they do stuff like mandatory leaves and long vacations was to keep the unemployment rate low. I think we have to agree on higher taxes though (not like they're low here in the US). (...) For those of us who (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) You're right, I'd actually turned off, and was about sleep when I had these same thoughts - it was a total cop out and I am afraid to air some of my tentative ideas. But I turned on the light an logged back on so that I could, as it's only (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) What a cop out. Why wait? You'll NEVER figure out ALL the details, nor will anyone else. All you can do is set up a system in which there is a clear, and just, way to resolve issues, and rights are protected. That's what Libertarians are (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) No, I don't think I could agree with that.. but I guess finding someone who has worked with the homeless could provide a more substantial opinion. (...) If I ever figure out all of the details I'll be sure to let you know. Richard (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Perhaps you misread my post, but I'll answer anyway. I'm saying that the children of people (none of whom I've called, even by implication, "crack smokers") who are unable to meet their responsibilities can't realistically expect support from (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Trot them out, then. Or far better, and far far far more relevant, answer the main point, that most (not all!!!) homeless Americans deserve it because of the choices they made. Unlike almost all homeless Ugandans or Tibetians or Kurds or (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) that (...) Certainly true. But I guess I'm a little frustrated by the way .debate is lately. It seems to be a few libertarians trying to explain how to make the world a better place vs. several times as many people saying "what if this, what (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | vacation
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I'm going to be going on vacation for the next two weeks. I'll try to catch up when I get back. I'm particularly interested in hearing what people have to say about the nature of property/property rights: (URL) Matthew Miller ---> mattdm@mattdm.org (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) Which is good, but doesn't mean that they are not there. (...) As LUGNET is an international forum, that statement is hardly going to go without comment! Best for somethings, not best for others... (...) I'm not arguing (m)any of those points (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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(...) I don't think that asking questions, or even giving examples of situations that might give a particular idea problems can really be called potshots. A lot of the other stuff that's been flying around certainly could be. Richard (25 years ago, 12-Jan-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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