Subject:
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Re: Libertarian stuff (Was: Re: Art Debate Was: [Re: Swearing?])
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 13 Jan 2000 04:07:21 GMT
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Viewed:
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1428 times
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Dave Schuler wrote in message ...
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
> > If the kids don't have whatever it takes, they don't have it. No amount
> > of government posturing is going to fix it. If people really feel these
> > kids deserve a break (and perhaps if this REALY is the case, they do),
> > then charity will step in.
>
> This, yet again, sounds like "forget the stragglers" reasoning. What if
> "people" (whoever they might be--I'm dying to hear some suggestions, since • in
> Libertopia a person's responsibility seems to be to himself and/or his • family)
> don't feel these kids deserve a break? Who helps them then? Or do we just
> decide that they don't get help because no one wanted to help them?
If no one wanted to help them, then how in heck do we end up with a law
helping them? Who passed the law in the first place if no one wanted to help
them? I really doubt ANYONE (no matter how bad a crack head or whatever)
will have NO ONE who want's to help them, and honestly, if you can show me a
person who NO ONE wants to help, I think you have shown me the one
legitimate time for the death penalty, because the only reason I could think
of that NO ONE would care would be that the person had managed to piss off
the whole world with some pretty dire crimes.
If you assert that it is true that someone could be deserving of even a
shred of care, yet NO ONE cares, I would say that the logical conclusion is
that people are not just "born in sin" per Christianity, but don't even have
a hope of being saved. Cheery world view that.
> > I dispute the thought though that these kids are totally lost. I have read
> > many articles on people who have set up some kind of organization to help
> > kids like this, and have been successefull (one recent one which comes to
> > mind is the grade school teacher who adopted a whole class of under-
> > priviledged kids, those kids are now graduating from high school, and I • think
> > almost all are going to college [assuming I'm remembering right]).
>
> I've heard that story. Not all the kids graduated, and fewer still are • going
> to college, due in large part to the fact that their benefactor wanted a
> larger say in their education than they were willing to allow.
> So, in the Libertopia of personal responsibility, we're still expecting
> individuals to take care of other people's children out of a sense of
> altruism? How many articles have you read, exactly? Or, at least, where • are
> they? Did these mysterious benefactors fund the entire education, or just
> subsidize it? Would these contributions truly have helped a child with
> nothing else? What was the family/community structure like for these
> children? Did this charitable system work equally well regardless of
> individual social/familial/financial situation? Anecdotal evidence aside, • the
> assertion that children from all circumstances will do well if "given the
> chance" is naive at best and deliberately exclusionary at worst.
I have to admit that I haven't researched this topic to death, but I see a
constant trend of articles talking about people making a difference. I have
also donated time and money to an organization which does a tremendous
amount of difference in improving peoples lives by making it possible for
them to own a house, and unless the brochures and magazines for said
organization are totally white washed, they do seem to be doing some real
honest good. My only regret is that I really should do more to help this
organization.
> > "Whatever it takes" is certainly not hereditary or we wouldn't have so
> > many rags to riches stories (and the reverse)... Most of "whatever it
> > takes" is someone else caring. I see evidence that people do, and with a
> > system which actually rewards teachers (I think teachers pay is going to
> > rise dramatically in Liberatopia), I expect a LOT more teachers to care.
>
> Where does all this magic money come from in Libertopia? Surely you're • not
> expecting corporations and charitable folks to contribute without expecting
> some agenda-payoff in return. Why would a corporation, for example, fund
> education without having a reasonable expectation of a return on that
> investment?
So we should instead have taxes pay for a school system with absolutely no
expectation of a return on the investment? I would say that ANY entity
(individual, corporation, or government) which invests money on something
with NO expectation of return on that investment is being irresponsible (and
before you say "what about charity?", my answer is that I expect a charity
to accomplish something with my money, I don't expect to see an annual
report which says "Franks $1000 did XYZ", but I expect to see constant
communication that the charity is actually accomplishing something).
> Likewise, do you really think would individuals fund education
> without forwarding their own notions of propriety? This is in fact a major
> problem with current school systems funded by local taxes: parents and
> individuals who fund the school demand a say in which books are used in • that
> education. As such, any charitable organization or corporation • contributing
> its magic Libertopia money to a school or education factory would • definitely
> demand a say in what is taught. Ideally, of course, this would be • altruistic,
> but in reality it would forward the political, social, and economic agendas
> and value systems of the contributors, regardless of the wishes of the
> families whose children are taught at such institutions.
Show me a system which doesn't have this pitfall, and I'll think about that
as an alternative. Liberatopia gives the best promise I can see to reduce
this pitfall because there will be multiple competing education systems
which will be held accountable to those investing in the systems, including
the parents in most cases.
I also have to say that my parents chose to enroll me in a sex education
course at my church because the public school system's sex education course
was of limited value. My church has just finished a long process of
researching a new course which is much more comprehensive.
> > > > Of course many of the children who are not sent to school by their
> > > > parents will end up running afoul of the law. You can bet your booties
> > > > that however the justice system works, I'm going to expect that it will
> > > > do something to make sure that these kids get an education to make them
> > > > sufficiently productive to offset the cost of supporting them.
> > >
> > > That's quite a trick! What manner of education will the justice • system
> > > impart to these poor souls? License plate manufacture? And who will • run or
> > > even fund these education factories? The parents who had insufficient • money
> > > to educate their children in the first place?
> >
> > There will be some kind of correctional system, funded by fees to
> > property owners who wish to keep the crooks of the street at worst. In
> > order for this correctional system to operate the most efficiently, it
> > must do more than simply warehouse the crooks. It will (over the long
> > term) find the most cost effective amount of education to give to
> > produce the most income from the crooks. Those crooks who are not
> > "lifers" will leave with a usefull skill, and in many cases will have
> > paid off any financial debt they owe.
>
> Who organizes these facilities? Who runs them? Who decides what is • taught
> in them? Besides which, even in Libertopia the fringe/criminal elements • will
> adhere to a wildly different set of social values, and you can hardly • expect
> them to step in line with society's notions of personal responsibility. • Short
> of a rehabilitative system like none currently in existence on Earth, • prisons
> will continue to function with their own complex infrastructure regardless • of
> the idealism of the outside world.
So this is a reason to not have a Liberatopia, because it can't be perfect?
I still think that in a Liberatopia, the correctional system(s) (there will
be competing systems I'm sure) will be much more effective. For those who
have a chance of redemption, it will concentrate on actually trying to
reform them (while making sure they accept responsibility for their crime).
For those who will not reform, it will put them on a chain gang or something
(or just lock 'em up and throw the key away - if you're not going to make
any effort to reform yourself, I don't want you out on the streets, if
you're willing to make an effort, and actually accomplish something, I'm
willing to give you a chance, I believe that most people will make an
effort).
As to who organizes and runs the correctional systems? Probably during the
transition, the government. Once we're transitioned, some will be taken over
by private enterprise. I'm sure there will be plenty of groups overseeing
the institutions to make sure the prisoners aren't abused (and abuse would
be a violation of the prisoner's rights, so the government would have cause
to involve itself).
Frank
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