Debate : 5201


Off-Topic / Debate / 5201

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) ideas (...) his (...) "Taxes should hurt" -Ronald Reagan (quote while he was governor of California) (24 years ago, 30-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I recall that quote, actually, and I agree with it, by the way. ++Lar (24 years ago, 31-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

Larry, Very interesting, conservatism is close to Libertarian views? Hmm... sounds familiar. : ) ( Outside of all that Christian Right rubbish, which, for the most part, I do not agree with ) Seriously, though, very interesting interview. I keep (...) (24 years ago, 31-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Steve Bliss

(...) Libertarianism is generally considered to be strongly toward the right of the political spectrum. Not at the end, of course: there is no end. The 'political spectrum' is not a line, but a circle, with the far left colliding with the far right. (...) (24 years ago, 31-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

Steve, (...) True in facts, but facts rarely enter in political debates most of the time. (...) Wow, this is the first time I heard someone mention this, I always thought the same. Fascism / Marxism / Communism is not too fr off in my book. I think (...) (24 years ago, 31-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Lindsay Frederick Braun

(...) Everyone has different reasons for embracing a given philosophy--a fellow I went to college with (actually, he was a Lib candidate for Ypsilanti city council in the early 1990s) apparently switched from Dem to Lib to Rep (after being shot by a (...) (24 years ago, 31-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

Lindsay, (...) time. (...) I went (...) council in (...) shot by (...) that (...) with (...) like (...) Hmm... well, I guess my political philosophy is definately right / conservative (Which, in actuality, classic liberal) / Budding Libertarian. My (...) (24 years ago, 31-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) history (...) Both the far right and left merge under totalitarianism. I came to this conclusion independently many years ago, so it seems to be fairly self-evident once you get into it. My experience is that conservatives are the ones who see (...) (24 years ago, 31-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Lindsay Frederick Braun

Hi, (...) It's not really a matter of right/left seeing it that way, but of "old-school/new-school" and how polarized a particular speaker is. Of course, a lot of the "new school" people are deconstructionists and think that trying to diagram (...) (24 years ago, 1-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Not by libertarians, it's not. We reject the one dimensional spectrum. You need at least two. See the quiz at www.lp.org, for example. (...) Again, not enough dimensions in use to be accurate. ++Lar (24 years ago, 1-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

(...) need (...) I have taken the quiz before, interesting diamond shape. However, (no offense to Libertarians or to Larry) it reminds me of triangulation, in which Clinton seemed to try to position himself. He was above either the right or left: (...) (24 years ago, 1-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Larry Pieniazek

(...) ?? freedom, victimless crimes, markets as levelers and wealth creators? these are all classical liberal ideas. Again, the point of that spectrum is that current left liberals are OK on personal freedom (factoring out minor PCness) but lousy on (...) (24 years ago, 1-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bill Farkas

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: "Ka-snip" (...) (freedom). (...) I profoundly disagree. It is liberals who are anti-freedom. Liberals are the ones trying to tax and regulate anything that moves. You are confusing freedom and (...) (24 years ago, 1-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Larry Pieniazek

(...) You're not clearly distinguishing betweeen personal and economic freedom, so you fall into the one dimensional trap. (...) No I'm not. Take the quiz. (...) 2 points. a) no they're not I vehemently dispute that homosexuality is in and of itself (...) (24 years ago, 1-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Unsurprisingly, I agree with Larry. Liberals are trying to limit different freedoms than conservatives. I think that any time a citizen is coerced into some action by a body of governance (or by an individual, it amounts to the same thing) (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

Chris, (...) on (...) just (...) I wonder what you are truly saying here, Chris. Zealots are on both sides of the abortion issue, both for and against. I don't think murdering people for most reasons is acceptable (outside of capitol punishment or (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Scott, in the past, you have taken offense at my writing and it sounds as if you may be here. If I'm wrong, discount this paragraph, but... I didn't say that zealots only occupied one side of the issue. All issues have zealots on both sides. (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

(...) if (...) say (...) on (...) think (...) that's (...) What I meant is that I was talking about abortion, and I didn't feel like going over this again, because I think we discussed this before. (...) Well, it is war, and killing is involved. (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Can't we think of something better? (...) So when I'm convicted of a capitol crime and am put to death for it, even though I didn't do it, that's not an infringement on my rights? I disagree. (...) Sure, just like you could surrender to the (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bill Farkas

(...) I defy you to separate the two - one impacts the other. (...) Ask yourself the question, where would the human race be if we were all homosexual? We would be extinct. Besides, there is more that is self destructive in that lifestyle than just (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

I hope you guys don't mind me butting in... (...) That's true. But, when you look at these limitations of freedom there's sort of a first glance and then deeper impacts. If you tell parents what school their child must/may go to, it is first a (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

Chris, ( I am jumping in this a day or late, oh well!) (...) sort (...) is (...) same (...) Well, telling which schools to send your kids too is very limiting to parents, and schools do teach a morality of their own, regardless if it is Christian or (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

Hi Scott, (...) Right, but it's the norm for those who don't want to spend double duty on their children's education. I'm all in favor of school vouchers (or complete privatization, for that matter). But what are you getting at here? (...) Well, it (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

Chris, (from Scott, who should really be working rather than staying on off topic) Anyway, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Weeks" <clweeks@eclipse.net> To: <lugnet.off-topic.de...ugnet.com> Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 10:50 PM (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) And your friends from church take what stance on bags? And what about on cars and the environment? (...) This implies to me that you see right-conservatives favoring liberal positions on a regular basis. IS that what you mean? Which liberal (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

(...) on (...) current (...) so (...) Well, it really depends on what you would consider personal freedom. Should the government be involved in things? No. Look at the census, for example. What time do you go to work and what time d you come back. (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Key West, one of the best places in the world... —Larry Pieniazek

Oh, and by the way, Key West has got to be one of the most wonderful places on the entire face of the planet, because people there (at least while they are there, anyway) are so very very open, friendly and tolerant. I love going there and I wish I (...) (24 years ago, 1-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Key West, one of the best places in the world... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) If you're rich because gas runs about 1.5 times the price of the rest of the country. (...) If you're rich, because hotel rooms cost about four times the price in the rest of the country. (...) Oh wait, you are. ;-) I'm only bitter because (...) (24 years ago, 1-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Key West, one of the best places in the world... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) I'm of course proud of just about everything to do with myself(1), and in this case I'm happy that my preferences seem clear cut to me, and therefore I'm proud of the fact that I did't waste a lot of emotional energy on the issue. There's no (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Key West, one of the best places in the world... —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Right, I meant beyond that. ;-) (...) Glad, I'd buy, but proud just seems a bit off (not that you're not allowed). (...) I guess I can see all that, but it sounds like you're proud of being well-adjusted rather than proud of being (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Key West, one of the best places in the world... —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Ya, that's it. And, while I'm not ashamed of my choices, perhaps proud is a bit over-reaching of a statement when applied to them. Since when, however, have I been known to be modest? ++Lar (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Key West, one of the best places in the world... —Bill Farkas

(...) I go there at least once a month, and I love it there, too (...) Wasn't intended to be. You might consider it a poor choice of words, but I was simply saying that it is a place where homosexuals choose to party. I was typing fast (for me (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Key West, one of the best places in the world... —Ed Jones

(...) there (...) Key West is one of my favorite places on the planet. And that distinction is due to the Conchs of Key West, who admittedly, have stayed in a permanent 60s frame of mind. Key West also has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

(...) They (...) these (...) Classic liberalism, yes. Current liberalism, no. The current definition is reflected in the LP quiz, where liberal is on the left, not the right. When I say liberal, it is on the left. When I say classical liberal, I (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Haha! I like that one! There is an essential truth to it. But once again, you are ascribing to Clinton what in truth many politicians are guilty of. Bush / \ Liberal Conservative That's the picture GWB gave at the start of the campaign. When (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Well I clearly think that a 2d is better than a 1d whether closed form or open... whether more than 2 dimensions are needed is unclear. But libertarians introduced more dimensions precisely because we don't FIT on a 1D... we're not modern (...) (24 years ago, 2-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

Bruce; (Big sigh, and away we go!) (...) again, (...) Well, Clinton was the master of it, it was a Dick Morris idea, btw, and it worked beautifully for him (The era of big government is over. HA!!!...!!!) (...) I don't think so, BTW. Anyway: (...) (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Edward Sanburn writes: [snip] (...) I certainly wonder that. He was there only chance of winning the election. We'll be welcoming (or whatever) President Gore next year. Uggh. (...) Ummmm...not the McCain that I (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) ^^^^^ Ack! Really folks, that was supposed to be a their. I'm up past my bed time. Chris (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

(...) on (...) election. (...) I don't think so. We shall see. The polls still favor Bush, as far as I have seen. (...) Well, campaign finance is a HUGE one, for starters. I think the whols system is gfarbage, and putting the government in more (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

McCain etc. (was: Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close) —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) You're saying that campaign finance reform is a leftist topic? I don't think so. Gore isn't really reform-minded. In general no establishment politicians are going to be. If McCain truely is, then he's an exception. (...) Are you claiming that (...) (24 years ago, 3-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: McCain etc. (was: Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close) —Scott Edward Sanburn

Chris, (...) system (...) The one he is for, yes. (...) Wow, there is a surprise. (...) I disagree with Mccain on his campaign finance reform because it is the same line leftist have being saying for years. It hurts how the Republican National (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) "Compassionate conservative." When push came to shove, he ran as far right as he could and tried to declare McCain a liberal (I would hardly declare Clinton a liberal, much less McCain). (...) People are always trying to paint their opposition (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Scott Edward Sanburn

Bruce (And all you McClain supporters out there), I am just wreathing at the Microsoft debacle, and now we go in on the McCain debacle. What is it? Is this not decided already? This sounds like a leftist whine fest. "Ah, gee whiz, he lost!" I have a (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Jeremy H. Sproat

(...) The thing I really enjoy about .debate is watching all the tiny tantrums folks (myself included) post here. The laughs really clear my head and help me get a fresh perspective on the day. Thanks, Scott. I knew I could count on you. Cheers, - (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) What? You mean that they froze the market for a while? I tend to think that's a good thing. (...) That's me, Chris the Leftist! (...) Like what? (...) Well, you have to admit that a tax cut is the last thing this nation needs right now. (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) I wasn't whining at all. I could not care less. He's a republican. Blah. (...) Bush has to do something to pretend he is a centrist, I wouldn't be surprised. It would be the smart move. (...) No. Not at the price of having Dubya select any (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Clinton's fairly liberal for a Republican. (...) Indeed. Chris (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Clinton (...) Haha! And here I just said in another message that my wife views Clinton as a Republican! (okay, not really, but it's a measure of how much of a centrist he is). Bruce (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Larry Pieniazek

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes: Mostly agree, so snipped most of it... BUT... (...) I really really don't think I'm right-wing.... But I consider Clinton to be quite socialist-leaning, when you dig through the rhetoric and (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Gosh, what will everyone think when a *real* liberal shows up? My wife thinks Clinton is a Republican. :-) Bruce (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) What do 'real' liberals believe? As I think of it, at some point on the leftward scale you become a communist in favor of maximal wealth redistribution. Is wealth distribution the crucial factor in everyone else's mind, or is that just me? If (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Ummmmm, you were supposed to laugh! Extreme right wingers excoriate Clinton for being this rabid liberal, but if you strung out all liberals in a line, you'd find him over on the right-hand side. The further south you go, the milder the (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) It looks like I failed to communicate. I understood your note. (...) Right. That's my perception too. (...) I know. Now what do real liberals believe? And more importantly, what is the single factor that most closely correlates with the (...) (24 years ago, 4-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) Ask 100 people and you'll get 100 different answers. I don't think you can boil it down to one convenient factor. (...) Civil liberties, racial equality, gun control, abortion, school prayer, censorship, business rights, unions, and on and on. (...) (24 years ago, 5-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Reagan... not exactly libertarian, but close —Bruce Schlickbernd

(...) The amusing thing being that Ronny took a paper loss that year and didn't pay income tax (which the papers had a field day with in California and why it sticks in my mind). Bruce (24 years ago, 31-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)