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...Or, "How to turn $75 million USD into $1 billion by making friends and influencing people, and killing thousands of others besides." Halliburton Makes a Killing on Iraq War (URL) the party begin) Prisoners of Hypocrisy (URL) Damned Spot!) Tony (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Not to try to single folks out, but your "Dream of America the Perfect" must be revisited--Directed at John 'Faith in their own exceptionalism,' she writes, 'has sometimes led to a certain obtuseness on the part of Americans, a tendency to (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) She also writes in that article (and indirectly criticizes you for your one-sided except): "It would be unfair to reach these harsh conclusions without pointing out that America does provide much aid and expertise to the developing world and (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree with some of that, *but* your [collective] "love of Freedom and liberty" is not reflected in your support for all manner of deviants [both current & past] is it? Is self-interest more important than your [collective] "love of Freedom (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What? You think America the Great is the only country that 'produces countless blessings upon the world'? You act as if America is the second coming, John! We, all of us, are equal nations (or at least should be), and the second you start (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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*Applause* (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Because I am a red-blooded american boy; living, breathing, working, and striving for all that is great and good for my world; and because I am committed to a larger project which takes the downturns and the upswings with a grain of salt; (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sorry, Dave. Some nations are better than others. That's no slur against those who happen to live in the nations that aren't up to snuff. But when you say stuff like "We, all of us, are equal nations", you're being tiresome. Note that I didn't (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Absolute Wow! for the article, Richard. Just to start a different debate, one of a more political nature, and one where I don't have an opinion (yet ;) )... Will, or could, the "American Empire" fall, much akin to the former Soviet Union? (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Did I say that? You are obfuscating and being argumentative. (...) I don't even know what that is supposed to mean. (...) I reject your moral equivelance of nations. The second we think we are better is the second that there are second class (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is not a straw man at all, Larry, and I'm sorry that you're tired. But when you are wrong, you're wrong. You have no issues pointing out when I'm wrong (or others), and I have no problems accepting such criticism. But *a* country has the same (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, your very posts show me that "America the Great" is what matters, and other ideas be damned. (...) Now look who's misreading--I never said "morally equivelance" at all. Would you please read and understand what is being said. In so many (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Dave: for clarity's sake, let me point out that John is objecting (not incorrectly) to your charge that he is painting the US as the sole provider of blessings, when in fact he merely asserted that the US has produced countless blessings. For (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) How obtuse can you be??? We are talking about *governments*. Free and democratic societies are superior to repressed ones ruled by dictators. What about that is so hard to understand? JOHN (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) True, and I apologize. The America-centric vibe I get from John's posts slanted my readings. I would have said something like, "There are many countries that have contributed 'blessings' to the world, and America has had it's fair share." But (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yes, Larry has a "tiresome" way of asserting the existence of some arguments that should silence us all, but then never actually putting any of these things into words. It's as if he sits there smug and superior, knowing all and revealing (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Snip out all the stuff. Whatever. If your gov't is allowing oppression in certain countries because it suits your countrys needs and wants, and yet goes to wars with other countries because it suits your needs--I like how Iraq is an American (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richard Marchetti writes: <snip> (...) Eh, like those cutsey posters, everything I need to know for life I learned in either kindergarden or from watching Star Trek. Never leave tribbles unattended! Dave K (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) No, that's not just you-- I agree with you! I'd probably say "Lion's share", but that's just me:-) (...) Accepted. (...) Ahem. Don't confuse the terms Democracy and Freedom with Capitalism-- they aren't necessarily interchangeable. JOHN (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) <snip> (...) Actually I was trying to imply without saying it that I consider Larry a friend and I respect his opinions, when he lists them ;) My friends and I are always, "Put up or shut up", "Put your money where your mouth is", when we (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Absolutely. It's called overextending yourself. Spread yourself thinly enough, gamble enough, and you may find yourself in the position of the snail getting salt dumped on him. You dissolve. And Empire means spreading yourself thin hoping you (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) lol so now we are demonized because we don't stick our collective nose in *everywhere*?! (...) *YET*! That's the *WHOLE* point. (...) And why does NK have nukes? The UN forbade it. What exactly *can* we do at this point? One doesn't just go in (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not sure that they are necessarily mutually exclusive. The ultimate self-interest motive in our war against Saddam is the self-preservation of our way of life which is all about Freedom and Liberty. If you are referring to motives like oil (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So you believe that Iraq had agressive intentions towards the US in the immediate future? That this country, which couldn't send a missle 800 miles outside their borders was well on its way to threaten the peace, security and "freedom and (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Quality of life that they delliver to their citizens, and, more importantly, that they're likely to deliver to their citizens in future. It's not about size, it's not about population, it's not about military might, it's not about resources, (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Gee, you're not exactly reaching for much are you? That's like saying that I may not be perfectly sane, but I am saner than Charles Manson. Another post empty of content from the Great and Powerful O...er, Larry. -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So you couldn't find fault with, then, the idea that Canada is superior to America, because, as polls show, we have a better quality of life than America--we were number 1, and are now number 3, after all... Dave K (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm not here (in this thread) to assert that we're the very best. It's just clear to me that some countries *are* better than others. I gave an example of a country that's clearly toward the bottom so that there could be no quibbling about the (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ploughed ground, but I'll explain again. Saddam supports terrorists (paying Palestinians families of homicide bombers is one example that we are aware). He has, in fact, terrorized his own people with chemical and biological weapons. The man (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Potential is not reality. Like hope or faith, it's just something you happen to believe. And I do think you are exhibiting every sign of a kind of myopia. You should have that checked... -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't care what you *believe* will happen if you split an atom, potential energy *will* be released. JOHN (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Again, I would say that a *country* is on an even playfield with any other country where international relations is concerned. One country imposing itself on another sovereign country because they feel they're 'better' is unjust. What goes on (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You may call it "ploughed ground" but what you say here is contradictory to whay you said earlier-- (...) "The self preservation of our way of life", or as Dubya says in every single speech, "Protecting Americans". And everyone else in the (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Do you honestly think a change of regime in Iraq will stop the flow of money from the oil fields to Al-Qaida? ROSCO (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ::sigh:: Potential has nothing to do with it, just as belief has nothing to do with it. It's an observable phenomena: if you split an atom, energy will be released. Emphasis dropped because it is not a wonder -- it is a known thing. Stop (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Harkonnen? Atriedes? Doesn't matter... ...the spice must flow. -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Then you are going to have to explain what you mean by "we are all equal nations". (...) Thank you. (...) Straw man-- I *never* used the UN to justify *anything*. Contrare, I think that the UN is a sham! I used the example of the UN's decision (...) (21 years ago, 26-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Left in because I'm still hoping for a yes/no answer. Just a "yes" or "no" without any qualification or equivocation. (...) Why? If we postulate a yes to the question above, then why should the DPRK be on "on an even playfield with any other (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) And yet you deleted all the stuff where I disprove this question--it's one of your very own straw men. How can you ask, "Is this superior to that" without qualifications? Canada's geographically bigger than the USA therefore we're superior. Is (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You're dodging. You say you reject the notion of moral relativism, right? I'm not talking about EQ characters or size. I'm talking about the metrics we already discussed... morally: which one is on the side of right more often? In which (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Now might be a good time for you to step back and see where your arguing is taking you, because you have wittingly or no become a useful idiot for some of the most violent and repressive dictators and their regimes the earth has known. JOHN (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: (of US vs North Korea) (...) A discussion of quantitative measures of international superiority... this is something I have to participate in! (...) 'More often'? Can you expect to compare morality (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Forgive me if I stick my nose in for a point of clarification. John, your equivocation (or misprision, if you prefer) hinges on two distinct definitions of potential. In terms of physics, a system has potential energy bound up in the nature of (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Fine. Their problem to deal with, just as King George was ours. Why should freedom be free for them? Why should freedom be bestowed as a gift rather than taken by revolution? CAN it be bestowed as a gift? Me? I mind my own business. -- (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I believe Richard's straw term is the actual equivocation here (particularily when he snips the entire post to which he is responding). Further, Larry never used this word in the first place; is not even synonymous with his intended meaning. (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Did we deal with that problem *alone*? (...) Good question. At least the *opportunity* can be given. Why storm the beaches at Normandy in WWII? (...) "Who is my neighbor?" JOHN (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Colonial America and the French during WW II were both actively resisting their oppressors. I don's see this in modern day Iraq. Plus, our entrance into WW II was prompted by the agressive acts of two aggressor nations: Germany and Japan. Japan (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What if the population is being so wickedly repressed (speak out against me and I'll kill your *entire* family in front of you) that they are afraid to resist? (...) You missed my reference. A man asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Perhaps RM erred in such a large snip, but I immediately took his comment to refer to: (...) which seems to be investigating the potential of a country to deliver [quality of life] to it's citizens, as a metric for superiority. No doubt I'll (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So countries "deliver" "Quality of life" "to their citizens" - very libertarian! ;) Scott A (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Basically, I don't care. Still their problem and not mine. I would suggest that they have nothing to live for and might as well risk revolution. I suppose you're going to tell me we should send american boys over there to fight and die for (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Indeed. But there is enough Scottish blood in Canada to make it almost perfect. ;) (...) ...and how much of your "top quarter" supported a 2nd resolution? How much supports the current illegal conflict in Iraq? (...) Indeed, and it was those (...) (21 years ago, 27-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Larry is talking about the probability a country will continue to deliver. I'm not really interested in debating semantics, but potential and probability have different meanings. At least my reference was to the same word. JOHN (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Thanks for trying to clear this up. Use potential, use probability, whatever you like... what I was trying to convey was the likeliehood that a system of government will be able to continue to deliver (1) higher quality of life, higher (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: <snip> (...) But here's where you're missing the point, Larry--If we use your very own rationale, I'd say that Canada should have 5 votes to your 1, because we're so much better than you--we have (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) OK... one person one vote... that was a proposed metric too. In that case, the US gets what, 10 times the votes that Canada does? And India gets 5 times again since it's 5 times bigger than the US (I didn't look the exact figures up, you get (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I like hw you extoll the tenants of democracy except where you think it'll work against you. You have *no* faith in your fellow man--if there are all these counties, with equal voice, you think that if a vote came up--"Should Iraq disarm" that (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ...as a %age of GDP? (...) The UN is about bringing nations together; that cannot be achieved by excluding developing countries. (...) Sure, lets rank them by 1. "least countries bombed since 1945". 2. "least times the veto was used" 3. (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<snip> You've missed the point. I give up. (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) What a shock! Larry fails to explain the impossible. His basic assertion as I see it: an organization predicated on keeping the peace is broken when the U.S. cannot dictate to it a U.S. focused agenda from on high. In other words, when the (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Now *that's* an under-rated album! Dave! (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't think I would have been that harsh. After Larry's last post, I had decided to drop it as well, because neither of us are going to move, so why pursue the thread? As it stands, I respectfully object to Larry's assertion that we can (...) (21 years ago, 28-Mar-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Larry Pieniazek wrote: <big snip>... (...) Uh, Lar, that may not be such a good idea - the US has a long history of failing to pay US dues. If the vote was based on current, true, paid-up dues, there would be many times when the US would have ZERO (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) One of the things I find amazing about .debate in general - that people like Larry and Richard can be at odds about so many things in life, yet both like Marillion (as do I) ;-) -- | Tom Stangl, Sun ONE Internet Technical Support, Sun (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That's part of the original argument. If we don't get a vote unless we're paid up, we (and other nations as well) will be falling all over ourselves to pay up. ESPECIALLY if we get a 25% or so vote because of it. I think there are a lot of (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is it good music? would a guy whose musical tastes include everything from Bach to Beatles, from Chopin to CCR appreciate Marillion? Just wondering. Goggled them and found their site--will do more research tonite. Dave K (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Uh, I thought that was "Pigs, Three Different Ones" from Pink Floyd's animals? Dave! Bibble Babble Burble Brouhaha (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Is this 'payment' to a "revamped" UN dependant on number of citizens in the country? GNP? Or just a flat rate? What payment scale would you set up to a 'better' United Nations so that all countries would be represented fairly? (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You described my tastes (well they';re actually a bit broader than that) so yes. Marillion is good stuff. I had a chance to see them live at The Chance in Poughkeepsie NY in the mid 80s... amazing show (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Floyd-- wow. Why is "Animals" such an appreciated Floyd album and "Momentary Lapse" is not... That one makes me wonder.... Dave K (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Everyone pays whatever they want and then votes in direct proportion to how much they paid in order to decide what to do. So to implement the onion-vision all the US has to do is pay 51% (and that will work as long as the whole rest of the (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Arlo Guthrie? Steve Martin doing "Ramblin' Man"? Anything from "Dr Demento"? Supertramp (as I may have mentioned), Elton John, Journey, Michael W. Smith, Allison Kraus, Over the Rhine, and yes, I liked 'Genie in a bottle' by whazzername, (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pigs... was Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Two words, baby: Roger Waters. Three more words: Dogs of War (ugh!) David Gilmour is a swell guitarist, but as a lyricist (which is actually more my interest) he doesn't seem to convey the same oomph as Roger (though he can definitely run off (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) It is broken--that much you convinced me (though it didn't take too long a trip for me to see that...) But, again, just brainstorming here... Price per citizen, or any other scale of paying, tends to favour capitalist societies ("western"), (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Pigs... was Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Dogs of War is the biggest detriment to that, or *any* album. It definitly doesn't fit at all with the rest of the record! That one just bugs me--when I taped the album, I left that one out. RW--Radio KAOS--nice. Pros and Cons of Hitch (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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Argh! Correct you are... I'm thinking too much in the past, where we discussed Marillion for a bit. Of course, PF is also one of my longtime favorites - Marillion, Led Zepp, PF, RUSH, Peter Gabriel - those are what I listen to most, off the top of (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) I was born in '67 so it was the '80's when I became a teenager. But I was set when some of my older cousins played 'Crime of the Century' when I was a kid. It was the first album I bought. My parents listened to John Denver (who I still like, (...) (21 years ago, 1-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) Relate it to GDP. That way everyone gives as much as they can afford... sort of like income tax. Scott A (21 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Break Out the Cristal (trickle-down economics explained with champagne!)
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(...) I think it more likely we would end up falling over ourselves to do back-door deals in order to avoid paying. ROSCO (21 years ago, 2-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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