 | | Re: Guarded Inn ?
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(...) Doh! I just plugged an auction in .castle! (Apologies...) DaveE (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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In lugnet.starwars, Mike Petrucelli writes: (major snippage) (...) It failed my "Emperors New Clothes" test. Emperor with non-existant clothes that no one wanted to admit weren't there, but a child pointed out weren't there? Okay, so I explain (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) And when are those blue-eyed minifigs going to come out? Not many people have black eyes, much less black mouths (or are we doing Gothic LEGO people?) Chris (removing his sarcasm hat) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) I (...) They same thing you call yourself. Human. Either I am mentally well beyond the rest of you or I am so naive it is not funny. -Lord Insanity (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Lando (...) I couldn't agree more that humans are ignorant. So, no one cared that Han and Luke were yellow. And, IF they release a Lando, and he's yellow, I'll buy him. I would want brown, but I'd buy yellow. But are you telling me that you (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) All mini-fig humans are yellow. Billy Dee Williams is human therefore a mini-fig copy of him would be yellow. What is so difficult about this. No one cares that Mark Hammill and Harrison Ford were made yellow. (...) Ah but if you go to my (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: suing TLC for discrimination (was: Re: A simple answer)
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(...) Seems like those who have been promoted in my company have removed their heads, but forgot to reattach them afterwards :-) -Duane (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) again, (...) an (...) It's (...) brown (...) Like Dave says, if this is true, then Vader should have had a yellow head too. He's a Star Wars "person/character" too. Yes, I understand that it is gray for effect, and I want it to be gray, not (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) I think the "American" part refers, right-or-wrong, to North America, South America, or "the Americas," without getting into one nation or another. Similarly, I had a professor from England who was just a few generations removed from Africa, (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: suing TLC for discrimination (was: Re: A simple answer)
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(...) Perhaps. But then so could anyone who felt that she'd been denied a promotion because she has four fingers and a thumb instead of the minfig style of hand. Likewise anyone who'd missed a promotion because he couldn't remove and reattach his (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) But what you're not incorporating into this assertion is the fact that, at least on some level, the development of the characters was influenced by the actors themselves. Luke's run-in with the Wampa (sp?) was dictated by an accident suffered (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I know that I've snipped lots, but I wanted to ask about this in particular. On the spectrum of diseases, does this actually count as _easy_ to pass along? I have handled AIDS patients on a few occasions (that I know of) and I seem to be (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) I was always good in "Where's Waldo", and that type of thing. :-) -Shiri xfut .fun (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) You got it! Good spotting! /Eric McC/ (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) minifg (...) my (...) Hmmmm. Why are they Native AMERICANS? What about us? In all rights they should be Native Canadians, we are the bigger country (1) no matter what the "neighbours" think... <<KM>> (1) landmass wise, not economically, we're (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) But that makes them absolutly NO DIFFERENT as a mini-fig. If mini-Han and mini-Luke had tan heads then it would make sense for mini-Lando to have a brown head. However they are not based on the actors. Mini-Luke and mini-Han have yellow heads (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Look at the top-right pic; click on it to enlarge. At the top middle of the poster, there is a 'fig with a white construction hat... it has a black head. (...) Well, certainly of SOME of them, if not all... -Shiri (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) I *know* they're characters. Here's my point. Tell me the name of the guy who is portrayed by the Indian Cheif. The actual guy. There isn't one! It's just a generic figure. Now, I can tell you the names of the guys who are portrayed by the (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Quote from Reuters news story: "In seven countries in sub-Saharan African, 20 percent or more of adults were infected with the virus that causes AIDS, and would die within the next few years, leaving some 40 million children orphaned, Thurman (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) ?? Which one? I didn't see any black heads in any of them. I saw a couple 'figs with black hair, but none with black heads (or at least, none visible). I think part of the point (of at least a couple) of the posters is that all of them are the (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) I think the reason it gets more attention is because it affects more people (just my impression) all over the world than cancer, especially in Africa. (...) These are just the US stats. I seriously doubt these stats hold true for other (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) AIDS is a communicable disease, and is on a fairly steep climb as far as death toll goes. Some statistics(1): South Africa estimates 1 in 10 adult males have HIV. There are 7 African countries where AIDS is responsible for 20% or better of the (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) What are these threats? (...) Who is Reason? (...) It is a threat, maybe not to national security, but a threat nevertheless. HIV/AIDS could cause the deaths of millions of people in a short time, it already has, it will in the future. HIV, (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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Regarding that same photo, I wonder if the frown on the minifigs face was hand drawn or did they actually manufacture it? Or was it done after the photo was taken? Dave Eric McCarthy <bendyarm@aol.com> wrote in message (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes: --SNIP-- (...) One report I read (can't remember where) explained the NS threat with respect to AIDS trends on a global level: Africa, Asia specifically. With the massive rates of infection in (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) AIDS (...) lots of snip,snip,snip... (...) Plus they had the political/lobbying machine already rolling with the Gay Rights Movement. My father died from cardiac disease, my mother from cancer, I'm sure everyone here has their own ideas about (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) to (...) Even with the 'Indians from India', doesn't the term come from the Indus valley civilisations (hardly the subcontinent), history buffs please help. (...) In Australia, some Aboriginals (a generic term that crosses oceans) refer to (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) it (...) Wow, for once, Larry, I actually agree with you! On all points! I hope this isn't a continuing trend ;-) Whilst the ill-informed will brand it a "gay disease", the fact that AIDS is indiscriminate across the sexual spectrum makes it a (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Just a quick note here: TLC had better hope this isn't provable in a court of law! Didn't Harrison Ford win a case concerning his likeness in the _Indiana Jones_ movies and its transfer to a PC game? I think the case was settled that Ford (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Wack or wacky? ;) They have somewhat opposing meanings, so I'm just trying to figure out if you liked Anthro or thought they were nuts--not that both can't be correct. Oddly enough, the term "Sioux" is dragged through *two* languages, first (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | suing TLC for discrimination (was: Re: A simple answer)
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(...) You're right, they can't sue TLC for *that*, but... what if there were a lawsuit by TLC employees in the USA who thought they were being denied promotions due to their race. Could they use the "racially pure" minifigs as evidence of a (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) And...I try to call them by their proper tribal name bacause Hopi are not Sioux, who are not Navajo, etc... (now watch someone tell me I managed to mangle the spelling of one of those, so I can tell them that those are transliterations into (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A simple answer
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I didn't mean to imply they would sue them over a portrayal of ethnicity, I meant that someone might sue to have their group represented as part of TLG's population of minifigs (if TLG actually started making ethnic 'figs). Dave (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A simple answer
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(...) I doubt it. Even if someone wanted to sue LEGO, what could they possibly argue? LEGO has the right to free speech, and therefore has the right to make their figs any color they want. By not creating figs with various "skin" tones, LEGO is (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) One might argue that action figures or minifigs represent the actors who in turn represent the characters... (...) Hmm. I'm a native American, since I was born in Pennsylvania, even though my heritage is entirely European. Dave! (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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(...) Oh, man, you are bringing up a topic that perhaps is more explosive than just about any other in modern american society. I love it. This is not going to make me any friends, but in my opinion the attention AIDS gets is a testimony to the (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: A simple answer
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(...) IANAA (I am not an American), but would a special interest group really *sue* Lego over a portrayal of ethnicity? Incidentally, I think Lego _should_ be challenged over it's attitudes to race and gender. As was pointed out earlier, there seems (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) I think if TLC eventually make a Yoda fig it will be a one-piece cast item like Sebulba, or perhaps a two-piece (green head with big ears and tan or brown body), not an actual minifig. That is, I hope they don't make Yoda from a minifig. (...) (24 years ago, 1-May-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) away, probably because the head has no face. I think they would have used various skin colors on the posters if they had them. /Eric McC/ (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Why is AIDS such a big deal?
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Hi all, The feature story at cnn.com right now is that the "AIDS pandemic [has been] declared [a] threat to U.S. national security." I've wondered about the cultural significance of AIDS and the related syndromes for about a decade, but haven't come (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Sorry about replying to myself... But I neglected to mention that maybe the fact that they all were the same color was the point in the UN posters... (URL) Remove the nospam machine name in my email address to send a personal reply. (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) So what we need is the Lego race/gender minifig pack. :) Include boy/girl hair, different colored heads/hands, and let people mix and match their sets as they see fit. Now you can have African-American players on your soccer team (or female (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) What color head does Luke, Han, Obi-wan, Qui-gon, etc. have? Yellow. Why? Because all living, healthy, "human" mini-figs are yellow. If TLC makes a Lando or Mace mini-fig it will be yellow just like all the rest. Luke, Han, etc. don't have (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) those weren't based on one SPECIFIC person. I say that TLC should go for an accurate portrayal, if they make Lando and Mace (forgot about him...) -Chris (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) something (...) That's what I meant... (...) True. So depict Lando instead of Billy Dee. No problems there. (...) all (...) The latter. (...) to (...) You can be polite and not be politically correct. I was brought up (I'm 17) calling Native (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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Who is doing the design for the LEGO STAR WARS LINE? Is that being done by LEGO US or is it being done by LEGO (is it holland where there main headquaters is at). I ask this becuase I remeber reading when i was younger that LEGO US only manufactured (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | A simple answer
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Hey all, I think that TLG will avoid dealing with this touchy issue (as perfectly demonstrated by the huge threads this topic always generates) by simply not making the minifigs for these characters. Whether they made a Lando 'fig with a yellow or (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Luke and Han are not alive. Mark Hammil and Harrison Ford just depicted the Characters for our entertainment. :) (...) The minifigs *are* accurate. The Han Solo minifig is a minifig depiction of Han Solo, just as Harrison Ford was a human (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) True, but neither are American Indians or Pacific Islanders, yet those two groups were both depicted as yellow. I don't really pay much attention to the color of the minifig, I look more at how the race is represented. Even though they were (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) I think the main problem with this argument is "white lego people". Even if Lego people do seem to be living in a totalitarian nightmare of uniformity (look at the number of cops they need), yellow is the colour of all lego humans (whether or (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Aye, true. But, as I said before, this particular theme is based in something real. This is the first time that TLC has made minifigs based on real live people, and I question their stand on it, because it doesn't make sense to me. They strive (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Maxifigs apparently pre-date the "everyone is yellow" rule -- the Red Indians are literally Red. It's pretty funny, in a non-PC way. I'm a big fan of making minifigs as generic as possible (yay for smileys!). Give them character with their (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Aye, you both make good points. But the thing about this is that it's not Legoland, it's Star Wars land. This is the first time (I believe) that Lego has tackled something like this. They're making Lego figs of REAL people. I think that they (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) There's this too, from 1977: (URL) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Do you realize how many problems Lego would have if they started making non-yellow human minifigs? First, they'd have to stop making yellow minifigs altogether. If they didn't, and let them slide as "caucasians", they'd be opening themselves (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Ah! But not ALL humans. I don't see yellow duplo figs, nor yellow SCALA or BV figs either. Those are depicited as "caucasian"... TLC has a semi-double- standard thing going on, either way (as Jeff mentioned) they are in for big flammage... if (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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For everyone's info, Lego produced a set of 12 small duplo "World People" (Set 2772) in 1992. It consisted of three families. A black family - brown heads and a White family and Asian family, bith with Pink Flesh-colour heads.. I have no objections (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Neither is Harrison Ford. So? TLC is in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" position. Despite all evidence to the contrary, people continue to associate yellow minifig with Caucasian people. This is despite the fact that American (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Dont forget white (skelleton) Yep. TLG has never made minifig heads in brown, for any purpose. Bummer! Mabie we can convince lego direct to run off a batch of assorted brown heads??? (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) Set 215 Red Indians has an unprinted red minifig head used as a child's head. John B. (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) They've made white (Gasgano), black (Darth Maul), red (UFO), blue (UFO also), and grey (Insectoids and Darth Vader) minifig heads. For 'regular' people, they've always used yellow, but for the others, anything goes... except brown... ~Nathan (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) They have had AFAIK, unpainted heads in lots of colors, but the only color other than yellow I know of with a pattern on it was the robot head. (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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Can anyone say if lego has ever made a non-yellow minifig head? Chris (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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Xcalabur <Xcalabur@rocketmail.com> wrote in message news:FtsLzv.Eru@lugnet.com... (...) there (...) them (...) construct (...) some (...) difficult!) (...) the (...) to (...) I do not view it as a matter of being "politically correct", but just (...) (24 years ago, 30-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) are (...) EXACTLY my point! It's almost like they're trying to play both sides of the fence. Oh heavens, we need to be politically correct, but we don't want to get into it. I say that's bantha fodder. Give consumers what they want. -Chris (24 years ago, 29-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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(...) At Lego's Imagination Center at the Mall of America in Twin Cities MN, there are many large "minifigs" made out of regular lego bricks. Several of them are African American. I have pictures, I just need to scan them. I find it interesting that (...) (24 years ago, 29-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Why can't we have a Lando: Lego's Race policy
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I was snooping through Brickset today, and came upon something. TLC has firmly taken a stand on the race issue, saying that they give children yellow heads and let them play with them however they want to. They say they don't take sides when it (...) (24 years ago, 29-Apr-00, to lugnet.starwars, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Too bad because I've decided to recant. (mark your calendars people, this doesn't happen that often) Rereading what I said, I think I may have gone just a teeny little bit too far and built myself a house of cards that I can't support in the (...) (24 years ago, 29-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes: I'm taking this opportunity to post contrary to Larry since it only happens once in a blue moon :-) (...) fight (...) I'm with you so far... (...) Not to me. (And to others apparently.) When the (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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Here is the catch to all these arguements. Even in a Libertarian state, the thing most revered and respected is personal freedoms. One major freedom is the right for a person to decide where they desire to live and persue happiness. If Juan Miguel, (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) back, (...) I don't really think that's a matter of morality, more like time management. If you only have time to post ten messages, why bother answering banal posts? (...) that (...) Larry, do you really mean that we should abduct all kids (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) What if I take the stance that to a certain degree people must want to free themselves enough to make it happen, or trying to provide them with freedom will do no good? How does that fit into this binary classification? (...) You might perhaps (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Of course not. If Larry did, then he wouldn't be able to confuse you with his standard irrelevant hypotheticals. (...) Positing about an accident makes your argument irrelevant to this specific case, since Elian *didn't* wash up here (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Yeah! That's my job! 8^) Dave! (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Ahhhh, I love it. Cuban commandos come parachuting down to free the Piutes, but stay to gamble a while in the Indians' Piute Palace Casino. Bruce (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Libertarian (...) Can't we just stick to the actual events? :-) (...) fight (...) Elian was at sea, was rescued, and brought here. Oh alright, I'm nit-picking on that one. (...) I don't think persecution was why they left. (...) The child (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Please reread the relevant part: If she had won, I very much doubt she would have fled. I just don't think she was making any statement about communism. (...) You keep projecting your opinions onto Elian's mother (I'm not faulting the opinion (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) WARNING! Don't take your kids to America, you might never see them again! This is frought with danger. Based on China's human rights record (and gross overpopulation) if a Chinese family visited the USA with a young child, would you advocate (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Either that or having him stay in a "democratic" police state. Kya - who has nothing really to add to this conversation other than the opinion that the US is looking more and more like a police state (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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In a different subthread Bruce said I was ignoring a post of his. I think THIS is the one he refers to... sorry about that. OK. (...) I think this is the key point in the post that needs responding to. Let's posit a theoretical example. Suppose (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) escape (...) a (...) flown (...) Lost a custody battle in which court system? I'm not going to give any weight to a court system of Cuba. We already know that justice comes out there whatever way the apparatus wants it to. So, yes it is indeed (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) mother (...) many (...) then, (...) Whoa, wait a minute. She snatched the child and fled because she lost the custody battle. If she had won, I very much doubt she would have left. As much as you may view it otherwise, this isn't particularly (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) D'oh! Well, shoot. Good call. That was an unintentional inconsistency, and I think I stumbled between Elian's issue and the world-at-large. My error. (...) I wouldn't have characterized delusion in that way, but I see your point. "Delusion" to (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) *Now* you say that but originally you said "Undoubtedly! But that's still an assumption based on preconceptions" and that is what is leading me to believe that you weren't accepting that in fact most people under communist regimes live in (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Sorry, I was insufficiently precise. Merely by *deliberately* appearing here. If I fall out of a plane flying over Rwanda by accident it probably isn't my intent to apply for asylum there. Now, normally I try to avoid assigning intent but I'd (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Well, that's a colorful, if tangential, example, and I expect it might seed debates of its own. (...) I do not assert that communist states do not routinely deny civil rights, nor do I accept the basis of such an either/or determination. As (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Hmm... That's interesting, and I hadn't previously considered it that way. If he'd fallen out of an overflying plane, would he (assuming his survival) likewise have applied automatically for asylum? If, while I'm vacationing in upstate New (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) to (...) While true, that's not circular. For example, if you believe in strict creationism, your view on particular steps of the evolutionary process being true or not has no bearing, inasmuch as you've not accepted a fundamental premise (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) It's not entirely a custody matter. In my view Elian applied for asylum merely by appearing here. The niceties of when was the formal petition filed and so forth are just legal machinations being used to deny civil rights. His mother gave her (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Thanks! The circular part is that either the reader has to agree with your view, or else that reader's view doesn't count. In addition, it's also a "false dilemma," (if I recall my terminology correctly) in that it presumes to force a choice (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Sorry--I posted before "refreshing" my browser, so I didn't see that you had already replied... Dave! (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) However, was every other parent who remained in East Germany a likewise unfit parent? This again seems too sweeping a claim, generalizing everyone under one circumstantial banner. That said, the fact of your uncle’s brainwashing is dreadful. I (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) properly (...) Add "deluded" to the list and I will go with yes. It's that simple. (...) It's grand standing but it's not circular, based on your statement about preconceived notions. The gist of that was that you seemed to be in denial about (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Let me connect the dots for you. Arguably, Elian's mother would have been better served if she could have flown from Cuba to FL in a commercial airliner. Or even taken a large passenger liner, or in extremis, a 50 foot fishing trawler. But (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) her (...) That was me, and yes, I feel the attempt was particularly ill-prepared (i.e. the actual attempt was so doomed to ultimate failure it was literally terminally stupid). Perhaps this is a reflection of my deep respect for the open (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: LEGO Direct catalogs in Canada?
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(...) Just a minor nitpick, but if you're going to speak up in defense of Canada, you could at least do us the courtesy of capitalizing, neh? <xf-ut: off-topic.debate> James (URL) getting paid for this --> alladvantage.com Sign up via me, the (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.lego.direct, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) **snip of a few undeniable truths about Cuba** My question remains, though: are we to assume that anyone who chooses to remain in such a country must necessarily be either deceitful (spelled properly this time, unlike my last post!), under (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Sorry, can you clear up for me what preconceptions you're referring to? There is hard documented evidence in profuse quantities that, for example, psychiatry is viewed as an arm of the ministry of the interior (that is, the secret police) and (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) repercussions of his defection, it might *seem* as though he doesn't want to (...) Undoubtedly! But that's still an assumption based on preconceptions of the communist state, rather than on any evidence relevant to the case at hand. Dave! (24 years ago, 26-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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(...) Well, when he has relatives back in Cuba who would have to face the repercussions of his defection, it might *seem* as though he doesn't want to leave Cuba. I'd say he's in a tough spot. -John <snip> (...) (24 years ago, 26-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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