Subject:
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Re: Elian Gonzales
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 28 Apr 2000 19:46:53 GMT
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Viewed:
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608 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> >
> > > So a foreign state can keep my son from me because they feel they have moral
> > > superiority? I disagree. Communist police state, theocracy, monarchy,
> > > whatever. I don't like 'em all. But if that is *home* to someone and they
> > > want to live there, that's the individual's call (and in line with
> > > Libertarian thought).
> >
> > I think this is the key point in the post that needs responding to.
> >
> > Let's posit a theoretical example. Suppose there were a state in which at the
> > age of 10, one half of all the children would be put to death and eaten,
> > based on the flip of a coin, for no reason other than it were whim of the
> > ruler.
>
> Can't we just stick to the actual events? :-)
Of course not. If Larry did, then he wouldn't be able to confuse you with his
standard irrelevant hypotheticals.
> > Now, is it a libertarian America's duty to fix this evil? Arguably, no. Not
> > unless it is in danger of spreading to our shores. Individual citizens
> > certainly would be welcome to volunteer their arms and their armaments to
> > fight against it but not under government aegis.
> >
> > Now, posit that through some accident of fate, a 6 year old happens to wash
> > ashore on the beaches of this libertarian state, and relatives of his took
> > him in.
Positing about an accident makes your argument irrelevant to this specific
case, since Elian *didn't* wash up here accidently. The fact is, Elian was
brought here. Just because those who were bringing him here died enroute
doesn't change that fact.
> > The definition of a refugee is that there must be a well founded fear of
> > persecution in the home country. The definition of asylum is for a state to
> > grant a shield from that persecution by giving sanctuary.
>
> I don't think persecution was why they left.
Especially considering that Elian's mother had just lost a custody battle *and*
was coming with her boyfriend. Perhaps it was her boyfriend's idea to come
here, and she just tagged along.
> > So, if the relatives then petition for asylum, and the father appears,
> > demanding that the boy be returned to the child eating state, it seems clear
> > to me in this contrived example that the petition for asylum takes
> > precendence and the father is unfit.
>
> The child would be placed in imminent danger, which I don't see happening in
> this case.
I would think the father would also have to go to trial to determine whether he
is unfit or not. There has been no trial to determine this in Elian's case, so
Larry's points are again irrelevant.
> > My moral code allows me to pass judgement on other moral codes (that is, I
> > reject moral relatavism) and therefore if the father really wants to go back,
> > he's broken. Hence unfit anyway.
Yeah, I've noticed your "moral code" also allows you to ignore any opinions you
disagree with.
> > Now, not every person that passes through should be snatched. Only those that
> > want asylum of their own free will, or that are too young to decide for
> > themselves.
Are you just itching for a war? Actions like this would cause public outcry
across the globe!
Also, who determines whose moral code is superior? What would stop Cuba or
China from snatching our children under the claims that *they* are morally
superior?
> > America IS morally superior to Cuba.
How can one back that up? How is Moral Superiority determined? Are you the
only one who gets to decide it?
> > We could be better still if we'd just get rid of venal killers like Reno
Okay, where is the evidence on this? It seems to me to be in bad taste to call
a person a paid assassin without evidence.
Jeff
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) back, (...) I don't really think that's a matter of morality, more like time management. If you only have time to post ten messages, why bother answering banal posts? (...) that (...) Larry, do you really mean that we should abduct all kids (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) Libertarian (...) Can't we just stick to the actual events? :-) (...) fight (...) Elian was at sea, was rescued, and brought here. Oh alright, I'm nit-picking on that one. (...) I don't think persecution was why they left. (...) The child (...) (24 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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