Subject:
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Re: Elian Gonzales
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 27 Apr 2000 16:07:41 GMT
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Viewed:
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902 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
>
> > > Either you or Bruce characterised it as a stupid decision for Elian's mother
> > > to try to escape. Would you call the Warsaw Ghetto uprising stupid?
> >
> > I don't think it was me, just for the record, and I certainly don't think • her
> > attempt was stupid.
> >
> > Dave!
>
> That was me, and yes, I feel the attempt was particularly ill-prepared (i.e.
> the actual attempt was so doomed to ultimate failure it was literally
> terminally stupid). Perhaps this is a reflection of my deep respect for the
> open ocean, perhaps it's easier for me to see the danger having sailed so many
> times, but this one seemed especially irresponsible. As to wanting to escape
> from Cuba, no that's not stupid, but then I never said that it was. But then,
> this wasn't so much about getting away from Castro and Cuba as it was about a
> custody battle.
>
> Since the Warsaw Ghetto uprising has absolutely nothing to do with Elian's
> plight, I see no point in responding.
Let me connect the dots for you.
Arguably, Elian's mother would have been better served if she could have flown
from Cuba to FL in a commercial airliner. Or even taken a large passenger
liner, or in extremis, a 50 foot fishing trawler. But none of those were
available to her. She chose to risk her life to escape one of the most
tyrannical regimes currently extant, and to use the tools available to her,
inner tubes.
Your argument as I understand it is that because she had such poor tools, it
was stupid to try to escape. But I, at least, know(1) that every Cuban citizen
is at risk of being murdered, reprogrammed, imprisoned or brainwashed, every
day. Is it foolish to resist that even if you are doomed to failure?
Arguably, the Jews in Warsaw would have been better served in their uprising if
they had had a division of Sherman tanks and an air wing available to them, or
even several cases of machine guns and some bazookas. But none of those were
available to them. They chose to risk their lives to try to stand up to one of
the most tyrannical regimes ever, and they chose to use the tools available to
them. Clubs, knives, sticks, a few purloined hunting rifles and the sten guns
that they could make from the scrap iron they could scrounge.
An argument that oculd be made was that because they had such poor tools, it
was stupid to try to resist. But I, at least, know (as did they then) that
every Jew in occupied Poland was at risk of being murdered, imprisoned, or
rendered for their value as soap. Was it foolish of them to resist even if they
were doomed to failure?
The parrallel seems crystal clear to me. Morally, these cases are exactly
equivalent. Is it appropriate to resist tyranny knowing you may (or WILL, in
the case of the Jews) lose? Escaping and fighting back are both forms of
resistance.
I say yes. You've evaded the question but now that I've shown the equivalence
perhaps you'll address it.
But then, my moral code makes these sorts of decisions quite easy.
To Dave's point that I have an extremely strong interest and opinion on this.
Yes.
But then my maternal grandparents divorced over the question of whether to
escape East Germany or not in the late 40s. My grandmother chose to stay
because her son had come back from the russian POW camps brainwashed. My mother
stayed as well. My grandfather fleed.
It wasn't till the mid fifties that my mother came to her senses and escaped as
well. I submit to you that my grandmother was an unfit parent.
1- Quoting from Human Rights Watch (thank you, Libertarian Party for a very
timely press release that I can crib from)
NOTE PARTICULARLY points 4 and 5
... Fidel Castro's government:
* Has executed at least 15,000 political opponents since coming
to power.
* Makes it a crime to distribute Bibles, spread "unauthorized
news," or "insult dead heroes."
* Restricts fundamental human rights such as the right of
expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press.
* Imprisons or kills people for the crime of "illegal exit" --
trying to leave the country.
* Requires parents to raise children with "Communist
personalities." If parents stray from the official ideology,
they can be charged with the crime of "hindering the normal
development of the child."
++Lar
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) However, was every other parent who remained in East Germany a likewise unfit parent? This again seems too sweeping a claim, generalizing everyone under one circumstantial banner. That said, the fact of your uncle’s brainwashing is dreadful. I (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) mother (...) many (...) then, (...) Whoa, wait a minute. She snatched the child and fled because she lost the custody battle. If she had won, I very much doubt she would have left. As much as you may view it otherwise, this isn't particularly (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) her (...) That was me, and yes, I feel the attempt was particularly ill-prepared (i.e. the actual attempt was so doomed to ultimate failure it was literally terminally stupid). Perhaps this is a reflection of my deep respect for the open (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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