Subject:
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Re: Elian Gonzales
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:01:24 GMT
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Viewed:
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938 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> >
> > > > Either you or Bruce characterised it as a stupid decision for Elian's • mother
> > > > to try to escape. Would you call the Warsaw Ghetto uprising stupid?
> > >
> > > I don't think it was me, just for the record, and I certainly don't think • her
> > > attempt was stupid.
> > >
> > > Dave!
> >
> > That was me, and yes, I feel the attempt was particularly ill-prepared (i.e.
> > the actual attempt was so doomed to ultimate failure it was literally
> > terminally stupid). Perhaps this is a reflection of my deep respect for the
> > open ocean, perhaps it's easier for me to see the danger having sailed so • many
> > times, but this one seemed especially irresponsible. As to wanting to escape
> > from Cuba, no that's not stupid, but then I never said that it was. But • then,
> > this wasn't so much about getting away from Castro and Cuba as it was about a
> > custody battle.
> >
> > Since the Warsaw Ghetto uprising has absolutely nothing to do with Elian's
> > plight, I see no point in responding.
>
> Let me connect the dots for you.
>
> Arguably, Elian's mother would have been better served if she could have flown
> from Cuba to FL in a commercial airliner. Or even taken a large passenger
> liner, or in extremis, a 50 foot fishing trawler. But none of those were
> available to her. She chose to risk her life to escape one of the most
> tyrannical regimes currently extant, and to use the tools available to her,
> inner tubes.
Whoa, wait a minute. She snatched the child and fled because she lost the
custody battle. If she had won, I very much doubt she would have left. As
much as you may view it otherwise, this isn't particularly about Castro or
communism.
>
> Your argument as I understand it is that because she had such poor tools, it
> was stupid to try to escape. But I, at least, know(1) that every Cuban citizen
> is at risk of being murdered, reprogrammed, imprisoned or brainwashed, every
> day. Is it foolish to resist that even if you are doomed to failure?
No, I said the actual attempt was ill-conceived and ill-prepared. Had she
planned this during the custody proceedings she would have done much better,
but then this probably points to my belief this was entirely about custody and
nothing else.
>
> Arguably, the Jews in Warsaw would have been better served in their uprising • if
> they had had a division of Sherman tanks and an air wing available to them, or
> even several cases of machine guns and some bazookas. But none of those were
> available to them. They chose to risk their lives to try to stand up to one of
> the most tyrannical regimes ever, and they chose to use the tools available to
> them. Clubs, knives, sticks, a few purloined hunting rifles and the sten guns
> that they could make from the scrap iron they could scrounge.
>
> An argument that oculd be made was that because they had such poor tools, it
> was stupid to try to resist. But I, at least, know (as did they then) that
> every Jew in occupied Poland was at risk of being murdered, imprisoned, or
> rendered for their value as soap. Was it foolish of them to resist even if • they
> were doomed to failure?
>
> The parrallel seems crystal clear to me. Morally, these cases are exactly
> equivalent. Is it appropriate to resist tyranny knowing you may (or WILL, in
> the case of the Jews) lose? Escaping and fighting back are both forms of
> resistance.
Again, what in the world does this have to do with losing a custody battle and
snatching the child in question?
>
> I say yes. You've evaded the question but now that I've shown the equivalence
> perhaps you'll address it.
No, you are entirely misunderstanding the situation and simply don't seem to
understand that I'm not dodging the question, I'm finding it completely
irrelevant. I suppose since I have explained myself in a previous message that
you read and do not address at all, I have the greater claim that you are
dodging my points. BUT, I'm NOT claiming that: the subject of communism
clearly makes your blood boil and I think you just rushed headlong past it.
>
> But then, my moral code makes these sorts of decisions quite easy.
>
> To Dave's point that I have an extremely strong interest and opinion on this.
> Yes.
>
> But then my maternal grandparents divorced over the question of whether to
> escape East Germany or not in the late 40s. My grandmother chose to stay
> because her son had come back from the russian POW camps brainwashed. My • mother
> stayed as well. My grandfather fleed.
>
> It wasn't till the mid fifties that my mother came to her senses and escaped • as
> well. I submit to you that my grandmother was an unfit parent.
I suspect there is more to this story, so drawing conclusions is dangerous.
Did the father want to take the son with him? Did he feel nothing could be
done? Did the mother feel she had to try and undo the brainwashing? What?
See, on the face of what you say, your grandfather abandoned his wife and his
son in his hour of need. I don't see your grandmother as unfit at all (based
on the above only).
I've made my opinions known about parental rights earlier in this string, so
the rest is really irrelevant to me (read what I said elsewhere first - it
should answer why without my having to repeat myself).
Bruce
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) escape (...) a (...) flown (...) Lost a custody battle in which court system? I'm not going to give any weight to a court system of Cuba. We already know that justice comes out there whatever way the apparatus wants it to. So, yes it is indeed (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) Let me connect the dots for you. Arguably, Elian's mother would have been better served if she could have flown from Cuba to FL in a commercial airliner. Or even taken a large passenger liner, or in extremis, a 50 foot fishing trawler. But (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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