Subject:
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Re: Elian Gonzales
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:46:30 GMT
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Viewed:
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816 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > Whoa, wait a minute. She snatched the child and fled because she lost the
> > custody battle. If she had won, I very much doubt she would have left. As
> > much as you may view it otherwise, this isn't particularly about Castro or
> > communism.
>
> Lost a custody battle in which court system? I'm not going to give any weight
> to a court system of Cuba. We already know that justice comes out there
> whatever way the apparatus wants it to. So, yes it is indeed about communism.
> You can't have justice without the rule of law, which is sorely lacking.
>
> Therefore that's irrelevant.
Please reread the relevant part: If she had won, I very much doubt she would
have fled. I just don't think she was making any statement about communism.
> > >
> > > Your argument as I understand it is that because she had such poor tools, it
> > > was stupid to try to escape. But I, at least, know(1) that every Cuban • citizen
> > > is at risk of being murdered, reprogrammed, imprisoned or brainwashed, every
> > > day. Is it foolish to resist that even if you are doomed to failure?
> >
> > No, I said the actual attempt was ill-conceived and ill-prepared.
>
> Again, one works with the tools that one has available to one. Sometimes when
> the veil of deceit finally lifts one doesn't have much time to set things up.
> Do I wish she had realised sooner and prepared better? Yes. Not relevant.
You keep projecting your opinions onto Elian's mother (I'm not faulting the
opinion itself, just your process). And lame-brain is still lame-brain - she
could have prepared better.
>
> > Had she
> > planned this during the custody proceedings she would have done much better,
> > but then this probably points to my belief this was entirely about custody • and
> > nothing else.
> >
> > >
> > > Arguably, the Jews in Warsaw would have been better served in their uprising • if
> > > they had had a division of Sherman tanks and an air wing available to them, • or
> > > even several cases of machine guns and some bazookas. But none of those were
> > > available to them. They chose to risk their lives to try to stand up to one • of
> > > the most tyrannical regimes ever, and they chose to use the tools available • to
> > > them. Clubs, knives, sticks, a few purloined hunting rifles and the sten • guns
> > > that they could make from the scrap iron they could scrounge.
> > >
> > > An argument that oculd be made was that because they had such poor tools, it
> > > was stupid to try to resist. But I, at least, know (as did they then) that
> > > every Jew in occupied Poland was at risk of being murdered, imprisoned, or
> > > rendered for their value as soap. Was it foolish of them to resist even if • they
> > > were doomed to failure?
> > >
> > > The parrallel seems crystal clear to me. Morally, these cases are exactly
> > > equivalent. Is it appropriate to resist tyranny knowing you may (or WILL, in
> > > the case of the Jews) lose? Escaping and fighting back are both forms of
> > > resistance.
> >
> > Again, what in the world does this have to do with losing a custody battle • and
> > snatching the child in question?
>
> Posit for a second that it's not about custody. My thesis is that escape and
> fighting back are equivalent, they are both resistance to tyranny. Resistance
> is never a priori "stupid".
>
> Under the "not about custody" assumption do you see the connection? If not, • why
> not?
It's getting way off the track. It's not that it's not a worthy point to
discuss, just to me it's so far off the point I don't want to get side-tracked.
This is about parental rights and control, not revolutions. Even if Elian's
mother really had decided that Cuba was the evil empire, I just don't see it as
relevant.
> If so, then realise that it's clearly not about custody to me although I
> grant you haven't yet connected the dots the way I have so it is to you.
We see it very differently, that's all. And we probably just need to let it go
at that.
>
>
> > >
> > > I say yes. You've evaded the question but now that I've shown the • equivalence
> > > perhaps you'll address it.
> >
> > No, you are entirely misunderstanding the situation and simply don't seem to
> > understand that I'm not dodging the question, I'm finding it completely
> > irrelevant. I suppose since I have explained myself in a previous message • that
> > you read and do not address at all, I have the greater claim that you are
> > dodging my points.
>
> Which one? I am viewing the whole tree and I only see one prior post of yours
> that is in response to me, and it has two parts.
> 1) the ocean is big and scary and one ought to take it seriously (totally
> agree)
> 2) there is no escape/fight back link possible (disagree and that's what we're
> talking about)
I think you found it and have made a reply, so I'll answer elsewhere.
>
> If not, feel free to repost the text. But I've said most everything that needs
> saying, I think. I'm satisfied with my refutation.
>
> >
> > > But then my maternal grandparents divorced over the question of whether to
> > > escape East Germany or not in the late 40s. My grandmother chose to stay
> > > because her son had come back from the russian POW camps brainwashed. My • mother
> > > stayed as well. My grandfather fleed.
> > >
> > > It wasn't till the mid fifties that my mother came to her senses and escaped • as
> > > well. I submit to you that my grandmother was an unfit parent.
> >
> >
> > I suspect there is more to this story, so drawing conclusions is dangerous.
>
> Yes, I elided a lot. Josef is my grandfather, Gerhart my uncle, Erna my
> grandmother... "brainwashed" may be a bit strong. But Uncle Gerhart came back
> from being a POW in 1946 all happy that he was a good card carrying party
> member already and that he was going to use the system to be a big cheese, so
> life was going to be grand. Josef told him to snap out of it. Erna and my mom
> took Gerhart's side. Josef said he was not going to be a part of any scheme to
> oppress people by joining the party and that Erna should know better and that
> they needed to get out of there and fast.
>
> He left while it was still possible. Maybe that makes him a quitter, but
> discretion is the better part of valour.
>
> Gerhart DID become a medium sized cog in the party apparatus, going on to
> become mayor of Frankenburg, their home town, which was about 15,000 people
> (lending some credence that he did have some moderately good connections/pull)
>
> Erna participated in living the (relative to other east germans) good life
> because she was Gerhart's mom which pretty much does her no honor, but may not
> necessarily make her a bad parent in your book. Can a sadist be a good parent?
> How about a thief? How about someone who doesn't have the moral conviction to
> say "it's wrong to benefit by standing at the top of the pile of oppressed"? I
> tend to say not, no matter how loving a parent they are to the child.
>
> I really should stop, I've said all I want to on this topic. I doubt that • there
> is anyone who doesn't know what my main points are:
>
> - we're not very good at being a country of laws right now
> - Elian is being done wrong by the US government, because...
> - it's about asylum not custody, but...
> - Cuba is an evil, evil country, therefore...
> - wanting to take a child back there is a sign of unfitness, a priori
>
> ++Lar
Ahhhh. I figured there was more to the story. I'm still not sure that I'm
going to condemn anyone for being an unfit parent (Josef let his son fight for
the Nazis?) so much as a victim of circumstances and didn't make wise
decisions. Thanks for sharing that, though - it was interesting.
Bruce
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) escape (...) a (...) flown (...) Lost a custody battle in which court system? I'm not going to give any weight to a court system of Cuba. We already know that justice comes out there whatever way the apparatus wants it to. So, yes it is indeed (...) (24 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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