Subject:
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Re: Elian Gonzales
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 27 Apr 2000 22:31:50 GMT
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Viewed:
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1128 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > >
> > > > > Either you or Bruce characterised it as a stupid decision for Elian's • mother
> > > > > to try to escape. Would you call the Warsaw Ghetto uprising stupid?
> > > >
> > > > I don't think it was me, just for the record, and I certainly don't think • her
> > > > attempt was stupid.
> > > >
> > > > Dave!
> > >
> > > That was me, and yes, I feel the attempt was particularly ill-prepared (i.e.
> > > the actual attempt was so doomed to ultimate failure it was literally
> > > terminally stupid). Perhaps this is a reflection of my deep respect for the
> > > open ocean, perhaps it's easier for me to see the danger having sailed so • many
> > > times, but this one seemed especially irresponsible. As to wanting to • escape
> > > from Cuba, no that's not stupid, but then I never said that it was. But • then,
> > > this wasn't so much about getting away from Castro and Cuba as it was about • a
> > > custody battle.
> > >
> > > Since the Warsaw Ghetto uprising has absolutely nothing to do with Elian's
> > > plight, I see no point in responding.
> >
> > Let me connect the dots for you.
> >
> > Arguably, Elian's mother would have been better served if she could have • flown
> > from Cuba to FL in a commercial airliner. Or even taken a large passenger
> > liner, or in extremis, a 50 foot fishing trawler. But none of those were
> > available to her. She chose to risk her life to escape one of the most
> > tyrannical regimes currently extant, and to use the tools available to her,
> > inner tubes.
>
> Whoa, wait a minute. She snatched the child and fled because she lost the
> custody battle. If she had won, I very much doubt she would have left. As
> much as you may view it otherwise, this isn't particularly about Castro or
> communism.
Lost a custody battle in which court system? I'm not going to give any weight
to a court system of Cuba. We already know that justice comes out there
whatever way the apparatus wants it to. So, yes it is indeed about communism.
You can't have justice without the rule of law, which is sorely lacking.
Therefore that's irrelevant.
> >
> > Your argument as I understand it is that because she had such poor tools, it
> > was stupid to try to escape. But I, at least, know(1) that every Cuban • citizen
> > is at risk of being murdered, reprogrammed, imprisoned or brainwashed, every
> > day. Is it foolish to resist that even if you are doomed to failure?
>
> No, I said the actual attempt was ill-conceived and ill-prepared.
Again, one works with the tools that one has available to one. Sometimes when
the veil of deceit finally lifts one doesn't have much time to set things up.
Do I wish she had realised sooner and prepared better? Yes. Not relevant.
> Had she
> planned this during the custody proceedings she would have done much better,
> but then this probably points to my belief this was entirely about custody and
> nothing else.
>
> >
> > Arguably, the Jews in Warsaw would have been better served in their uprising • if
> > they had had a division of Sherman tanks and an air wing available to them, • or
> > even several cases of machine guns and some bazookas. But none of those were
> > available to them. They chose to risk their lives to try to stand up to one • of
> > the most tyrannical regimes ever, and they chose to use the tools available • to
> > them. Clubs, knives, sticks, a few purloined hunting rifles and the sten guns
> > that they could make from the scrap iron they could scrounge.
> >
> > An argument that oculd be made was that because they had such poor tools, it
> > was stupid to try to resist. But I, at least, know (as did they then) that
> > every Jew in occupied Poland was at risk of being murdered, imprisoned, or
> > rendered for their value as soap. Was it foolish of them to resist even if • they
> > were doomed to failure?
> >
> > The parrallel seems crystal clear to me. Morally, these cases are exactly
> > equivalent. Is it appropriate to resist tyranny knowing you may (or WILL, in
> > the case of the Jews) lose? Escaping and fighting back are both forms of
> > resistance.
>
> Again, what in the world does this have to do with losing a custody battle and
> snatching the child in question?
Posit for a second that it's not about custody. My thesis is that escape and
fighting back are equivalent, they are both resistance to tyranny. Resistance
is never a priori "stupid".
Under the "not about custody" assumption do you see the connection? If not, why
not? If so, then realise that it's clearly not about custody to me although I
grant you haven't yet connected the dots the way I have so it is to you.
> >
> > I say yes. You've evaded the question but now that I've shown the equivalence
> > perhaps you'll address it.
>
> No, you are entirely misunderstanding the situation and simply don't seem to
> understand that I'm not dodging the question, I'm finding it completely
> irrelevant. I suppose since I have explained myself in a previous message • that
> you read and do not address at all, I have the greater claim that you are
> dodging my points.
Which one? I am viewing the whole tree and I only see one prior post of yours
that is in response to me, and it has two parts.
1) the ocean is big and scary and one ought to take it seriously (totally
agree)
2) there is no escape/fight back link possible (disagree and that's what we're
talking about)
If not, feel free to repost the text. But I've said most everything that needs
saying, I think. I'm satisfied with my refutation.
>
> > But then my maternal grandparents divorced over the question of whether to
> > escape East Germany or not in the late 40s. My grandmother chose to stay
> > because her son had come back from the russian POW camps brainwashed. My • mother
> > stayed as well. My grandfather fleed.
> >
> > It wasn't till the mid fifties that my mother came to her senses and escaped • as
> > well. I submit to you that my grandmother was an unfit parent.
>
>
> I suspect there is more to this story, so drawing conclusions is dangerous.
Yes, I elided a lot. Josef is my grandfather, Gerhart my uncle, Erna my
grandmother... "brainwashed" may be a bit strong. But Uncle Gerhart came back
from being a POW in 1946 all happy that he was a good card carrying party
member already and that he was going to use the system to be a big cheese, so
life was going to be grand. Josef told him to snap out of it. Erna and my mom
took Gerhart's side. Josef said he was not going to be a part of any scheme to
oppress people by joining the party and that Erna should know better and that
they needed to get out of there and fast.
He left while it was still possible. Maybe that makes him a quitter, but
discretion is the better part of valour.
Gerhart DID become a medium sized cog in the party apparatus, going on to
become mayor of Frankenburg, their home town, which was about 15,000 people
(lending some credence that he did have some moderately good connections/pull)
Erna participated in living the (relative to other east germans) good life
because she was Gerhart's mom which pretty much does her no honor, but may not
necessarily make her a bad parent in your book. Can a sadist be a good parent?
How about a thief? How about someone who doesn't have the moral conviction to
say "it's wrong to benefit by standing at the top of the pile of oppressed"? I
tend to say not, no matter how loving a parent they are to the child.
I really should stop, I've said all I want to on this topic. I doubt that there
is anyone who doesn't know what my main points are:
- we're not very good at being a country of laws right now
- Elian is being done wrong by the US government, because...
- it's about asylum not custody, but...
- Cuba is an evil, evil country, therefore...
- wanting to take a child back there is a sign of unfitness, a priori
++Lar
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) Please reread the relevant part: If she had won, I very much doubt she would have fled. I just don't think she was making any statement about communism. (...) You keep projecting your opinions onto Elian's mother (I'm not faulting the opinion (...) (25 years ago, 28-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Elian Gonzales
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| (...) mother (...) many (...) then, (...) Whoa, wait a minute. She snatched the child and fled because she lost the custody battle. If she had won, I very much doubt she would have left. As much as you may view it otherwise, this isn't particularly (...) (25 years ago, 27-Apr-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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