Subject:
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Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 23 Dec 2005 08:01:03 GMT
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Viewed:
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1791 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Kevin Heckel wrote:
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I think I need to make my original question more explicit. Of all the many
reasons to object to a swastika spaceship, I’d like to know why you chose
“because it offends Germans”. Why didn’t you once mention the feelings of
Jews? Is it because they’re not going to Heaven?
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I mention Germans because there are a lot of German AFOLs. I know some
personally. They are great guys. And I would rather not have them believe
that English speaking people are a bunch of jerks who joke about things which
are uncomfortable for them at best. That’s not “playing well” in my book.
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So you mean to say Germans can’t take a joke, and need defending. Alright then,
good enough for me.
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As for Jews, I don’t know many, if any, AFOL Jews. But it’s different for
Jews anyway. They are the victims of the Nazis; the Germans are the
decendents of the Nazis.
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So what does that mean? That Germans are made more uncomfortable by it than
Jews?
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As for your weird comment about Jews not going to heaven; no. I consider
myself a grafted Jew. I consider the history of the Israelites as the
people of God to be my history. I have studied in Israel. I honeymooned
in Israel. My boss is a Jewish carpenter;-) So, if Jews aren’t going to
heaven, I’m not going to heaven...
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I’m glad to hear you don’t have anything against Jews, because it seemed pretty
suspect at first.
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What I mean is, what used to be an innocuous symbol adorning Hindu and
Buddhist temples has now become politically loaded. Shit! Time to
redecorate!
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That’s the breaks:-) Not exactly the same symbol, though.
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That’s my point. Yeah, you and I as non-Germans and non-Jews can “see” the
humor because we are removed from it. Our laughter, however, can so easily
be perceived as calloused insensitivity.
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And here I thought you didn’t understand the principle, when it just turns
out that you’re no rock ‘n roll
fun.
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If you say so; I’m not getting your reference:-(
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Uncultured!
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Mine? None. I’m only pointing out that victims of crimes had “earned”
the right to mock, whatever, their persecutors. I don’t really like Mel
Brooks’ Nazi humor (though I enjoy a lot of his humor normally) but at the
same time I am not about to condemn it-- it is not my place to do so.
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Well, it’s just “different issues there” seemed (to me, at least) to be
pretty dismissive of Jewish “issues”, like they didn’t fit in your “this is
offensive to people” argument. So please elucidate me on your true
intentions with that.
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Only that I was specifically thinking about German AFOLs when I originally
posted. The Jewish response is another discussion in my mind. It’s not that
I don’t think that some Jews won’t find it offensive, it’s just that I didn’t
choose to comment on that.
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Well, you should’ve specified “German AFOLs who read these boards”, then.
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Well, yes. “Political Correctness” is such a loaded term. I agree that
people should be sensitive to others’ feelings; it’s just that the whole
concept has been taken to an absurd extreme.
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Hogan’s Heroes was a pretty prime example of making light of Nazis. What
does its age have to do with it?
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Put it this way: you’d have a pretty difficult time trying to sell a TV
series concept to Hollywood like HH today.
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Sure.
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Not in the slightest. And judging from Jo-Jo’s remarks elsewhere, there
doesn’t seem to be many if any at all. It’s like laughing at someone’s
misery: what kind of jerk finds that funny? Well, a jerk who is a jerk.
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Are you calling me a jerk? Or are you calling Allister a jerk?
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Do you or Allister laugh at the misery of others? If so, then yes.
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I doubt “sticking it to the Germans” was Allister’s intent. But you could ask
him.
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More
importantly, are you trying to distract us from your ridiculous theory that
only Germans can make Nazi jokes?
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I never said that. Go back and reread what I said.
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You said, “I would guess that
only a German would have any hope of making light of that subject,” which
didn’t float. Which is part
of why that post seemed so thoroughly suspicious. Did you mean “German AFOLs”
again?
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Again, Jewish (implicit permission). She is painful to consider. Here is
a bright, intelligent women who is just so offensive. I don’t subscribe to
the “I’ll joke about taboos and stereotypes and bigotry and racist until we
all find it funny together” theory. What ends up happening is that when
she gay-bashes, for example, she only reinforces intolerance and bigotry
in her audience rather than helps to break those barriers down.
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Maybe she reinforced your bigotry, but not mine.
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Actually, I’ve never heard her act; only read an article about her. And I
was very disappointed, because I loved her in a classic 2 part episode of
ST:V.
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You should go see her movie and form your
own opinion.
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That’s too bad. He was my only non-Jewish example! Well, I know what to get
you for Christmas now.
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LEGO? ;-)
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Certainly an Australian can horn in on this game!
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Maybe if their last name is Goldberg;-)
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Well, not all the Hogan’s
Heroes writers were Jewish. And besides, who are you to dictate what
nationalities can make what jokes?
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I’m not dictating anything.
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Because you had to backpedal from your Only Germans Can Make Nazi Jokes theory.
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I categorically can’t find it funny because I know that it offends
Germans.
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Well, it’s not like you’re a stranger to
offending people. And I
for one thought you were pretty funny in that thread.
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You thought I was being offensive? How?
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Well, if you re-read the post
I linked to, for example, you’d notice you were very close to saying “I
can’t help hating gays, it’s genetic!”
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(I’m sooo misunderstood) It’s not gays I hate, it is their behavior, and
specifically to that discussion, the thought of gay sex. But I’d really
rather not open that can ‘o worms again-- I think I said all I wanted to back
then.
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That was almost as awesome as you
writing, in all caps, “GAYS ARE PEOPLE”. Comedic gold!
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My point was that discussions about AFOLs by gay people can be carried out in
.people (questioning the need for an NG based on behavior). Gays are people,
so they can discuss AFOLs in .people like everyone else. What is so funny
about that?
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The zeal with which you argued against it.
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Well, there are some key differences here. I am mostly ethnically German
(aside from the occasional Russian great-grandfather who’ll say until his
dying day he’s Polish) and I have racist grandparents to be ashamed of, so I
figure that that’s close enough to being a Kraut for me to be comfortable
making jokes about them.
It’s like how black guys call each other the N-word,
as you said. Furthermore, my joke was, I believe, sufficiently over the top
to be well into the “meta-humor” category.
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Yeah, but see (and this is my whole point) you may think you are justified
saying such a thing, but we all out here on LUGNET don’t know you from Adam!
So unless you preface your statement, it really doesn’t help your case, and
I’m sure a few eyebrows went up when you wrote that. I realize you didn’t
mean it literary, and neither did Bill Bennett, but jerks who hate him or his
politics seized on the opportunity to unfairly attack him.
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Are you saying Germans can’t take a joke again?
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I admit I was thinking of linking
to Jojo’s recent (and delightful)
oven MOC, but I
decided to err on the side of good taste.
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That’s it right there. All I am saying is that I wish when Allister came up
with his idea, he decided not to build it as to err on the side of good
taste. But he chose to build it, it sparked controversy as he must have known
it would, and here we are. And let me state right here-- germane to this
discussion is the fact that LEGO is a child’s toy. I think we have an extra
responsibility to create wholesome MOCs that are intended to be displayed to
the GP. That may sound prissy, but that is what I believe, and that is what
I advocate, and that is what I do.
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Well, where would we be without a little forum drama?
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This Mr. Bennett’s “joke”, on the other hand, was about a group (black
infants) he is decidedly not a part of, and there was some question as to
whether he was
kidding
on the square.
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Ahh, see, there is the slander, internalized and repeated to perfection.
Tell me, how does a staunch Pro-lifer advocate abortion in any way? The
answer of course is he doesn’t. So the “kidding-on-the-square” assertion is
simply a vicious lie (from people who actually advocate abortion!!! God,
the irony is so thick it’s unbelievable!)
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Well, I don’t pretend to be familiar with this guy, as the only radio I listen
to is my local college station. I wonder if he’d
like Sarah Silverman’s “Ethiopian baby” joke?
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Also, I’m not afraid of liberals. They suck.
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Well, I disagree with them on just about everything, but I wouldn’t say they
suck.
JOHN
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I guess that’s where you and me will have to agree to disagree, then.
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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| (...) Not at all. Germans have a very keen sense of humor. I mean that making light of something very disturbing to someone else is not a very civil thing to do, no matter how keen their sense of humor is. And it is uncomfortable for me to watch (...) (19 years ago, 23-Dec-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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| (...) I mention Germans because there are a lot of German AFOLs. I know some personally. They are great guys. And I would rather not have them believe that English speaking people are a bunch of jerks who joke about things which are uncomfortable (...) (19 years ago, 23-Dec-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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