Subject:
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Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 23 Dec 2005 04:36:31 GMT
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Viewed:
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1762 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Kevin Heckel wrote:
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I think I need to make my original question more explicit. Of all the many
reasons to object to a swastika spaceship, I’d like to know why you chose
“because it offends Germans”. Why didn’t you once mention the feelings of
Jews? Is it because they’re not going to Heaven?
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I mention Germans because there are a lot of German AFOLs. I know some
personally. They are great guys. And I would rather not have them believe that
English speaking people are a bunch of jerks who joke about things which are
uncomfortable for them at best. That’s not “playing well” in my book.
As for Jews, I don’t know many, if any, AFOL Jews. But it’s different for Jews
anyway. They are the victims of the Nazis; the Germans are the decendents
of the Nazis.
As for your weird comment about Jews not going to heaven; no. I consider
myself a grafted Jew. I consider the history of the Israelites as the people
of God to be my history. I have studied in Israel. I honeymooned in Israel.
My boss is a Jewish carpenter;-) So, if Jews aren’t going to heaven, I’m not
going to heaven...
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But
points for looking out for people’s feelings. Let’s see, who else could be
offended? I imagine Asians might be offended, because it reminds them of
how the symbol was stolen from
them.
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<shrug> There is nothing new under the sun. Are we sure that “they”
invented it, or did “they” “steal” it from some previous source?
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What I mean is, what used to be an innocuous symbol adorning Hindu and
Buddhist temples has now become politically loaded. ****! Time to redecorate!
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That’s the breaks:-) Not exactly the same symbol, though.
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What is
so hard to understand about that? Your little science project is doomed
from the beginning. I mean, shesh-- imagery like that is illegal in a
Democratic State, for crying out loud. What’s funny about that?
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See, it’s meta-bigotry. It’s funny because it’s so ridiculously
over-the-top. And the ridiculousness is what you laugh at. If not, then it
really is bigotry.
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That’s my point. Yeah, you and I as non-Germans and non-Jews can “see” the
humor because we are removed from it. Our laughter, however, can so easily
be perceived as calloused insensitivity.
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And here I thought you didn’t understand the principle, when it just turns
out that you’re no rock ‘n roll
fun.
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If you say so; I’m not getting your reference:-(
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<snip>
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Well it’s not a new idea to make a joke out of nazism. Mel Brooks
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He’s a Jew. Different issues there.
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What are your issues there?
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Mine? None. I’m only pointing out that victims of crimes had “earned”
the right to mock, whatever, their persecutors. I don’t really like Mel
Brooks’ Nazi humor (though I enjoy a lot of his humor normally) but at the
same time I am not about to condemn it-- it is not my place to do so.
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Well, it’s just “different issues there” seemed (to me, at least) to be
pretty dismissive of Jewish “issues”, like they didn’t fit in your “this is
offensive to people” argument. So please elucidate me on your true intentions
with that.
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Only that I was specifically thinking about German AFOLs when I originally
posted. The Jewish response is another discussion in my mind. It’s not that I
don’t think that some Jews won’t find it offensive, it’s just that I didn’t
choose to comment on that.
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and Hogan’s
Heroes spring to mind.
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That show is about forty years old.
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And that was before we invented “Political Correctness”, or...?
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Well, yes. “Political Correctness” is such a loaded term. I agree that
people should be sensitive to others’ feelings; it’s just that the whole
concept has been taken to an absurd extreme.
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Hogan’s Heroes was a pretty prime example of making light of Nazis. What does
its age have to do with it?
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Put it this way: you’d have a pretty difficult time trying to sell a TV series
concept to Hollywood like HH today.
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I personally don’t think any subject should be out of
bounds for humour, but it depends a lot on the execution. I’m hoping I
carried it off well enough, but that’s ultimately up to the audience.
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Not for any German audience I suspect. Just as only blacks can call each
other the N-word, and Jews have “permission” to joke about Jews, I would
guess that only a German would have any hope of making light of that
subject, and certainly not an outsider from Aussie.
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Again with zee Germans. Frankly, if I were to look out for someone’s
feelings, it’d be the someone who doesn’t have grandparents because of
what that symbol represents, rather than someone who’s simply embarrassed
by their grandparents. Do you have any examples of Germans making Nazi
jokes?
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Not in the slightest. And judging from Jo-Jo’s remarks elsewhere, there
doesn’t seem to be many if any at all. It’s like laughing at someone’s
misery: what kind of jerk finds that funny? Well, a jerk who is a jerk.
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Are you calling me a jerk? Or are you calling Allister a jerk?
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Do you or Allister laugh at the misery of others? If so, then yes.
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More
importantly, are you trying to distract us from your ridiculous theory that
only Germans can make Nazi jokes?
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I never said that. Go back and reread what I said.
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Off the
top of my head, I can think of a few non-Germans who are able to make light
of the Holocaust and Nazis. Mel Brooks (well, that was cheating, he was
already mentioned!), Sarah Silverman
(Jewish American),
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Again, Jewish (implicit permission). She is painful to consider. Here is a
bright, intelligent women who is just so offensive. I don’t subscribe to
the “I’ll joke about taboos and stereotypes and bigotry and racist until we
all find it funny together” theory. What ends up happening is that when she
gay-bashes, for example, she only reinforces intolerance and bigotry in
her audience rather than helps to break those barriers down.
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Maybe she reinforced your bigotry, but not mine.
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Actually, I’ve never heard her act; only read an article about her. And I was
very disappointed, because I loved her in a classic 2 part episode of ST:V.
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That’s too bad. He was my only non-Jewish example! Well, I know what to get
you for Christmas now.
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LEGO? ;-)
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Certainly an Australian can horn in on this game!
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Maybe if their last name is Goldberg;-)
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Well, not all the Hogan’s
Heroes writers were Jewish. And besides, who are you to dictate what
nationalities can make what jokes?
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I’m not dictating anything.
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I categorically can’t find it funny because I know that it offends
Germans.
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Well, it’s not like you’re a stranger to
offending people. And I for
one thought you were pretty funny in that thread.
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You thought I was being offensive? How?
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Well, if you re-read the post
I linked to, for example, you’d notice you were very close to saying “I
can’t help hating gays, it’s genetic!”
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(I’m sooo misunderstood) It’s not gays I hate, it is their behavior, and
specifically to that discussion, the thought of gay sex. But I’d really rather
not open that can ‘o worms again-- I think I said all I wanted to back then.
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That was almost as awesome as you
writing, in all caps, “GAYS
ARE PEOPLE”. Comedic gold!
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My point was that discussions about AFOLs by gay people can be carried out in
.people (questioning the need for an NG based on behavior). Gays are people, so
they can discuss AFOLs in .people like everyone else. What is so funny about
that?
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But I was merely trying to illustrate meta-humor
to you, thinking you didn’t understand the principle.
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Hey, just for kicks-- go post your MOC on 1000Steine and see what happens.
If that idea gives you pause, then maybe there are some deeper issues to
which you are oblivious and should have addressed before you embarked on
your build.
JOHN
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Hey, just for kicks-- let’s put all the Germans in ovens so there aren’t
any left to be offended by this MOC. (See? Meta!)
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Careful. William Bennett was
tarred by Liberals for
less than that!
JOHN
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Well, there are some key differences here. I am mostly ethnically German
(aside from the occasional Russian great-grandfather who’ll say until his
dying day he’s Polish) and I have racist grandparents to be ashamed of, so I
figure that that’s close enough to being a Kraut for me to be comfortable
making jokes about them.
It’s like how black guys call each other the N-word,
as you said. Furthermore, my joke was, I believe, sufficiently over the top
to be well into the “meta-humor” category.
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Yeah, but see (and this is my whole point) you may think you are justified
saying such a thing, but we all out here on LUGNET don’t know you from Adam! So
unless you preface your statement, it really doesn’t help your case, and I’m
sure a few eyebrows went up when you wrote that. I realize you didn’t mean it
literary, and neither did Bill Bennett, but jerks who hate him or his politics
seized on the opportunity to unfairly attack him.
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I admit I was thinking of linking
to Jojo’s recent (and delightful)
oven MOC, but I
decided to err on the side of good taste.
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That’s it right there. All I am saying is that I wish when Allister came up
with his idea, he decided not to build it as to err on the side of good taste.
But he chose to build it, it sparked controversy as he must have known it would,
and here we are. And let me state right here-- germane to this discussion is
the fact that LEGO is a child’s toy. I think we have an extra responsibility to
create wholesome MOCs that are intended to be displayed to the GP. That may
sound prissy, but that is what I believe, and that is what I advocate, and that
is what I do.
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This Mr. Bennett’s “joke”, on the other hand, was about a group (black
infants) he is decidedly not a part of, and there was some question as to
whether he was
kidding
on the square.
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Ahh, see, there is the slander, internalized and repeated to perfection. Tell
me, how does a staunch Pro-lifer advocate abortion in any way? The answer of
course is he doesn’t. So the “kidding-on-the-square” assertion is simply a
vicious lie (from people who actually advocate abortion!!! God, the irony is
so thick it’s unbelievable!)
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Also, I’m not afraid of liberals. They suck.
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Well, I disagree with them on just about everything, but I wouldn’t say they
suck.
JOHN
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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| (...) So you mean to say Germans can't take a joke, and need defending. Alright then, good enough for me. (...) So what does that mean? That Germans are made more uncomfortable by it than Jews? (...) I'm glad to hear you don't have anything against (...) (19 years ago, 23-Dec-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
| | | Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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| (...) Controversy? You're the only one making a fuss here, John. (...) Very prissy. Maybe even prudish. How about patronising? But hey, it's your life. Yes, lego is a child's toy. But, I am not a child, and neither are you, which makes it also an (...) (19 years ago, 23-Dec-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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| (...) I think I need to make my original question more explicit. Of all the many reasons to object to a swastika spaceship, I'd like to know why you chose "because it offends Germans". Why didn't you once mention the feelings of Jews? Is it because (...) (19 years ago, 22-Dec-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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