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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Kevin Heckel wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Allister McLaren wrote:
Dude. Nazism and Nazi symbols are offensive to Germans. Period.
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What about the Jewish community? One might think they’d be offended, too.
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Of course. But some Jews have dealt with the Nazis by mocking them (Mel) and
even some Jews find those Jews offensive...
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I think I need to make my original question more explicit. Of all the many
reasons to object to a swastika spaceship, I’d like to know why you chose
“because it offends Germans”. Why didn’t you once mention the feelings of Jews?
Is it because they’re not going
to Heaven?
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But
points for looking out for people’s feelings. Let’s see, who else could be
offended? I imagine Asians might be offended, because it reminds them of how
the symbol was stolen from them.
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<shrug> There is nothing new under the sun. Are we sure that “they”
invented it, or did “they” “steal” it from some previous source?
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What I mean is, what used to be an innocuous symbol adorning Hindu and Buddhist
temples has now become politically loaded. Shit! Time to redecorate!
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What is
so hard to understand about that? Your little science project is doomed
from the beginning. I mean, shesh-- imagery like that is illegal in a
Democratic State, for crying out loud. What’s funny about that?
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See, it’s meta-bigotry. It’s funny because it’s so ridiculously
over-the-top. And the ridiculousness is what you laugh at. If not, then it
really is bigotry.
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That’s my point. Yeah, you and I as non-Germans and non-Jews can “see” the
humor because we are removed from it. Our laughter, however, can so easily
be perceived as calloused insensitivity.
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And here I thought you didn’t understand the principle, when it just turns out
that you’re no rock ‘n roll fun.
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<snip>
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Well it’s not a new idea to make a joke out of nazism. Mel Brooks
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He’s a Jew. Different issues there.
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What are your issues there?
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Mine? None. I’m only pointing out that victims of crimes had “earned” the
right to mock, whatever, their persecutors. I don’t really like Mel Brooks’
Nazi humor (though I enjoy a lot of his humor normally) but at the same time
I am not about to condemn it-- it is not my place to do so.
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Well, it’s just “different issues there” seemed (to me, at least) to be pretty
dismissive of Jewish “issues”, like they didn’t fit in your “this is offensive
to people” argument. So please elucidate me on your true intentions with that.
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and Hogan’s
Heroes spring to mind.
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That show is about forty years old.
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And that was before we invented “Political Correctness”, or...?
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Well, yes. “Political Correctness” is such a loaded term. I agree that
people should be sensitive to others’ feelings; it’s just that the whole
concept has been taken to an absurd extreme.
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Hogan’s Heroes was a pretty prime example of making light of Nazis. What does
its age have to do with it?
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I personally don’t think any subject should be out of
bounds for humour, but it depends a lot on the execution. I’m hoping I
carried it off well enough, but that’s ultimately up to the audience.
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Not for any German audience I suspect. Just as only blacks can call each
other the N-word, and Jews have “permission” to joke about Jews, I would
guess that only a German would have any hope of making light of that
subject, and certainly not an outsider from Aussie.
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Again with zee Germans. Frankly, if I were to look out for someone’s
feelings, it’d be the someone who doesn’t have grandparents because of
what that symbol represents, rather than someone who’s simply embarrassed by
their grandparents. Do you have any examples of Germans making Nazi jokes?
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Not in the slightest. And judging from Jo-Jo’s remarks elsewhere, there
doesn’t seem to be many if any at all. It’s like laughing at someone’s
misery: what kind of jerk finds that funny? Well, a jerk who is a jerk.
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Are you calling me a jerk? Or are you calling Allister a jerk? More importantly,
are you trying to distract us from your ridiculous theory that only Germans can
make Nazi jokes?
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Off the
top of my head, I can think of a few non-Germans who are able to make light
of the Holocaust and Nazis. Mel Brooks (well, that was cheating, he was
already mentioned!), Sarah Silverman
(Jewish American),
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Again, Jewish (implicit permission). She is painful to consider. Here is a
bright, intelligent women who is just so offensive. I don’t subscribe to the
“I’ll joke about taboos and stereotypes and bigotry and racist until we all
find it funny together” theory. What ends up happening is that when she
gay-bashes, for example, she only reinforces intolerance and bigotry in her
audience rather than helps to break those barriers down.
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Maybe she reinforced your bigotry, but not mine.
That’s too bad. He was my only non-Jewish example! Well, I know what to get you
for Christmas now.
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Certainly an Australian can horn in on this game!
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Maybe if their last name is Goldberg;-)
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Well, not all the Hogan’s
Heroes writers were Jewish. And besides, who are you to dictate what
nationalities can make what jokes?
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I categorically can’t find it funny because I know that it offends
Germans.
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Well, it’s not like you’re a stranger to
offending people. And I for
one thought you were pretty funny in that thread.
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You thought I was being offensive? How?
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Well, if you re-read the post I
linked to, for example, you’d notice you were very close to saying “I can’t
help hating gays, it’s genetic!” That was almost as awesome as you writing, in
all caps, “GAYS ARE PEOPLE”.
Comedic gold! But I was merely trying to illustrate meta-humor to you, thinking
you didn’t understand the principle.
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Hey, just for kicks-- go post your MOC on 1000Steine and see what happens.
If that idea gives you pause, then maybe there are some deeper issues to
which you are oblivious and should have addressed before you embarked on
your build.
JOHN
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Hey, just for kicks-- let’s put all the Germans in ovens so there aren’t any
left to be offended by this MOC. (See? Meta!)
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Careful. William Bennett was
tarred by Liberals for
less than that!
JOHN
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Well, there are some key differences here. I am mostly ethnically German (aside
from the occasional Russian great-grandfather who’ll say until his dying day
he’s Polish) and I have racist grandparents to be ashamed of, so I figure that
that’s close enough to being a Kraut for me to be comfortable making jokes about
them. It’s like how black guys call each other the N-word, as you said.
Furthermore, my joke was, I believe, sufficiently over the top to be well into
the “meta-humor” category. I admit I was thinking of linking to Jojo’s recent
(and delightful) oven
MOC, but I decided to err on the side of good taste.
This Mr. Bennett’s “joke”, on the other hand, was about a group (black infants)
he is decidedly not a part of, and there was some question as to whether he
was kidding
on the square.
Also, I’m not afraid of liberals. They suck.
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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| (...) I mention Germans because there are a lot of German AFOLs. I know some personally. They are great guys. And I would rather not have them believe that English speaking people are a bunch of jerks who joke about things which are uncomfortable (...) (19 years ago, 23-Dec-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Rückkehr der Raumnazin
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| (...) Of course. But some Jews have dealt with the Nazis by mocking them (Mel) and even some Jews find those Jews offensive... (...) <shrug> There is nothing new under the sun. Are we sure that "they" invented it, or did "they" "steal" it from some (...) (19 years ago, 22-Dec-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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