 | | Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(URL) I literally laughed out loud in disbelief over this case. "A danger to Burglers"??? JOHN (21 years ago, 21-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well, here's this week's "Top 10 Conserviative Idiots" which would be more humourous if people weren't dieing due to the ineptness, lying and outright warmongering of your current administration... (URL) K (21 years ago, 21-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) The reality is that Mr Martin shot a 16-year-old kid in the back from a range of four feet using a weapon he should not have had. Read on: (URL) Mr Martin was tried using standards which put certain aspects of your legal system to shame. Why (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Right so even that article said the "16-year-old kid" broke into his home. If your old enough to commit the crime your old enough get shot for it. I for one would not let someone survive breaking into my home regardless of which direction (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Nice. Burgler != killer. So the 'kill or be killed' application does not apply. Sure you don't know the intention of said burgler, but because he broke one law doesn't immediately mean he 's going to commit murder. If we justified killing (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well I certainly will not risk my life to try and find out first. If a person breaks into my house I will assume the worst and act accordingly. (...) No, I wonder how people can be so pacifistic when it comes to their lives and property. -Mike (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Lives? How many criminal acts are there? And how many of them end with a death? I think the percentages speak for themselves. I always love people who rant and rave about how Playboy leads to sexual molestors and predators "All those sexual (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Life. It's about choices (1). Be a mountain climber? You might fall and crack your skull open. Race cars? You might hit a stationary object at a rapid rate and scramble your brains. Break into someone's home? You might find that that occupant (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Life is choices, and learning from past mistakes, and hopefully, as I probably don't have to mention to you, redemption. If yer dead, how can you work at that. I'm not an opponent to the death penalty, I am an opponent to 'vigilanty-ism'. As (...) (21 years ago, 24-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) if someone is in MY house, taking MY stuff, i have to stand there and watch quietly? I dont think so. There are consequences to every action. If someone is too stupid to understand that this is my stuff and they should keep their hands off it, (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) A persons guilt is not in question when they are caught in the act. The legal system pertains to persons who are charged after the fact. (...) If imprisoning someone who kills a person that broke into their home is your idea of a 'civil' (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) And again we go around with the punishment not suiting the crime. If someone is stealing your stuff, what justice is served by killing him? The punishment has to be proportional to the crime or, taking your idea of justice, we have is the (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Why? Do all smokers eventually do 'hard drugs'? Do all people who view erotica end up being Charles Manson? Justify please. (...) And this is civilized? Jaywalking warrants the death penalty? (...) And if someone steals my cloak, I'll offer (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) No but none of those are criminal acts or occuring in my home potentially threating my life either. Frankly, I can't belive you think it is okay for someone to break into you home as long as they are only stealing? (...) Jaywalking is not a (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) And I can't believe that you can't read. It's not okay for somone to steal. That said, it's not okay for you to kill someone for stealing. Do the words 'punishment fir the crime' ring any vague bell? Read and come back with something relavent (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) No I don't care about what is legal or illegal. I care about what is morally right and wrong. If it is rape, murder, or stealing it is morally wrong by any religion or lack thereof. If it is defending ones life and property, even if that means (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Shor' duz, pardner. Check out dem mighty gun-totin' wahoo-friendly Texas gun lawz! Take my stuff 'n I gets to plug you! Dem Kalifonicaters gotta actually be threatened an like, but here, if'n an orphan steal a crust o' yer bread, why shootin's (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Dude, how obtuse can you be? Mike has REPEATEDLY told you that he isn't willing to risk his life on the off chance that a burgler isn't there to rape/and or kill, but simply and harmlessly to steal. How can the punishment fit the crime when (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Read further. You'll find that the kid Tony Martin murdered was from an ethnic minority of which Tony Martin previously threatened to put in a field and "machine gun"... nice man. You’ll also find the kid pleaded for his life before being (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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I've tried to stay out of this one because I am of two minds about it, but... I just wanted to point out to Mike that morality aside, the laws in most western countries probably do not allow you to kill someone who is fleeing just as you are not (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well in that specific case I would probably shoot the guy in the leg, kick him in the head a couple time to make good and sure he is unconscious, tie him up, and call the police. If that is illegal then I now know why the crime rate is so high (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) And I am baffeled at the 'logic' of taking a life over a television set. Dave K (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Ok seriously, how can you determine that is the only reason someone would have broken into your home? I won't give them the benefit of the doubt, if you want to in your home that is fine. In an idealistic world if I could somehow magically (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Doh! Straw man! No one is punishing anyone for "defending their own property/lives." Instead, people are being forced to accept the consequences of their actions when they choose to kill someone. Unless there is no way to defend yourself short (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) ANd right back at you--how can you determine that the guy breaking into your house is out to kill you, instead of just taking your television? Again, look at the stats--thousands on thousands of cases of petty theft and burglary, and a scant (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Cite, please. I've never heard this statistic and would value the chance to review the study that produced it. It's fine if you're employing intentional hyperbole, but that should be made clear to the audience. Dave! (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) (URL) (...) Its right up there with the myth that police actually prevent crime rather than the reality of the fact that they simply investigating after the fact 99.99 percent of the time. (...) -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) By owning a gun are you not already doing that? Statistically, is the weapon not more likely to kill one of your own household than it is an intruder? Scott A (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Why would I give someone that broke into my home the benefit of the doubt? (...) I would only incapacitate them if I could do so without risk to my life or loved ones. (such as a swift kick to the back of the head followed by several more to (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Well in this case "personal responsibility" falls on the person that breaks into someone elses home and winds up dead for it. The fact that the person was killed by the homeowner (who in my view is only defending their lives from the (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) That is a flawed statistic. It applies to persons that own a gun but have never used it until they had to. (Which unfortunately is a lot of people) In my case I know how to properly use the weapon. Besides in close quaters a bladed weapon is (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Nope. Statistically, the person you are most likely to kill with that gun is yourself. (...) No, it applies to all gun use. Scott A (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Thanks for the link. A quick run around the Internet finds no mention of the book except on Amazon and a few dozen rabidly pro-gun websites. In itself, that's not a refutation of the book's value, but I'm hesitant to assess its worth from such (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Mike Petrucelli wrote: <snip> (...) <snip> (...) How about having the police services *deter* people from committing crimes in the first place. Its very hard to know when and where a person who is set out to commit a (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) That's where I believe you're making an unsubstantiated leap. Even within the bounds of this discussion, you appear unwilling to consider any response other than "kill the intruder/it's his own fault" when other options truly are available to (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote: <snip> (...) :) Laugh out loud. In the end, I really do appreciate you guys. You give me much to think about and wrestle with. Keep up the astounding debates. <snip> (...) (21 years ago, 25-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually I did here: (URL) (...) Ok now I think I am starting to see where you guys are coming from. I realize I may have come off a little "hard set" too. I would not be shooting at noises, as most of your example seem to suggest. I would (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Oh the book is obviously conservatively biased, but the basic information pertaining to the Government successfully winning court cases which conclude they have no obligation to respond to 911 calls and/or insure the safty of specific (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) WTF? Did you even read my post? -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Indeed not. The courts have fairly routinely announced that the only time the government is specifically responsible for you is when and if you are "in custody" (i.e. "under arrest") and even then they try to weasel out of responsibility most (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Basically what you are arguing for is an increase in law enforcement personnel, which is fine (although adding to the tax burden), but in the end I don't think it will decrease the crime rate that much, although significantly drive pastry (...) (21 years ago, 26-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I would agree that prison is now more of a "resort", and less of a deterrent to criminals and crime. I am certain that many people who are not criminals, but good, hardworking people, DO NOT have health care, exercise equipment or access to (...) (21 years ago, 27-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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This is more of the usual right-wing idiocy. Beat down the victims of right-wing callousness. The problem is not incarcerating real criminals, the problem is the creation of crime! We are trying to legislate morality by creating whole categories of (...) (21 years ago, 27-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Sure, crime isn't the criminal's fault, it's society's! (...) You know, I've been meaning to ask you about that. So what if we have the hightest incarceration rate in the world. Should there be some magical limit? We as a society have certain (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Because it violates the freedom of people who wish to use them without affecting anyone else. Duh. (...) But they do not fall under the category of rape, murder, or stealing and as such only affect those who choose to participate. Anything (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) If you look down the barrel and pull the trigger, sure. It is very unlikely that you kill yourself with a gun unless it is intentional. It does however, happen, it is just very rare. (...) The way around that is proper gun use through training (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Point One: Most burglaries occur during the day when nobody is home. This entire issue is a moot point, there is no confrontation. Most burglars hate confrontation. (Partly because it can lead to thier death.) Point Two: Yes, murderous (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) "One of the most common problems with handguns are unintentional deaths and injuries that occur when people handle guns. Approximately 17,000 unintentional gunshot wounds are treated in U.S. hospitals each year - 1 every 30 minutes, and (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Yeah, that's the big problem -- my naïveté! Growing prison populations challenge already cash-strapped states (URL) WASHINGTON (AP) -- America's prison population grew again in 2002 despite a declining crime rate, costing the federal (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I think the real difference lies in what you and I identify to constitute an immediate threat to oneself and one's family. It seems that you equate the act of breaking-in with the intent to inflict bodily harm, whereas I distinguish between (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I said you were naive, not an idiot. But anyway, if you think such powerfully addictive drugs were available to the GP at such low prices, what do you think would occur? How many 1,000s if not 10,000s of junkies would our society have? It (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) As the child is under her care and if through her ill-advised actions she gets shot in self defence, I would say that the fault lies with her. -Mike Petrucelli (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Okay, but let's extend it a little further. Suppose we went with variation #3 from my previous post: 3. The "intruder" is your daughter who has sneaked down to the kitchen for a glass of water during the night If you killed your daughter in (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Ok I must restate that I do not shoot at noises. In fact more than likely I wouldn't shoot at all I'd simply knock the intruder out. But anyway... (...) Yeah that would be your own dumb fault. I would agree with the involuntary manslaughter (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It is obvious you have never seen people beaten down by their socio-economic cicumstances as I have. Come to West Oakland, CA and see the situation and tell me that people are absolutely choosing their lifestyles. Now who is being naive? As an (...) (21 years ago, 28-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) You defend the more Christian approach? You make me laugh. Your idea is to have the government try and solve the problem, wasting billions of $$$ on beaucracy. How many trillions of dollars have we spent in the past 40 years on welfare (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Nobody mentioned welfare except for you, John. I emphasized decent education and trade programs. I don't see that you rebutted anything else substantive that I have previously stated either. You set up a straw man and want me to defend it? Not (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I feel obliged to add that we probably haven't spent "trillions" of dollars on welfare unless of course we include the ongoing billions handed to big corporations, and that doesn't really qualify as 'trying to wipe out poverty.' Further, even (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Sure, if they would use it without affecting anyone else, but they won't. They will use and drive cars and barges and operate machinery, and kill 1,000s as drunks do today. What about the freedoms of the rest of us? (...) What I am saying is (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) First I should state that I belive we should make driving while intoxicated a capital offense. (meaning that it can be punishable by execution once the court system is overhauled, until them life imprisonment) Second why do you assume that (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Um, okay, that's "hard":-) But yes, it is only that kind of "no tolerance" policy that is going to change public behavior. That said, I think it would definitely lead to an increase in the prison population (addressing Richard's qualm), at (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I think most people don't do drugs because they don't want to risk their lives/health/saftey, not because it is too expensive. Personally I don't smoke, drink, or do drugs. The bottom line is that using drugs does not fall under the category (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Can a parallel be drawn with alcohol in the "dry" twenties? Why? (or why not) Pedro (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) The problem with drug usage is not the usage "per se", it's what addicts do once they waste all their money. Tipically, the pattern for drug usage is: you have a job and do drugs, then you lose your job (and income) due to the addiction, then (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) So instead of legalizing something relatively benign like pharmaceutical grade cocaine or heroin, you have de facto readily available garbage like crack. Crack is cheap, powerfully addictive, and TRULY ruins people's lives quite quickly. What (...) (21 years ago, 29-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) I'm not sure I follow you. Would people prefer to use these pharmaceutical drugs, or would they opt for the more potent and insidious drugs like crack and ecstasy? (...) lol I hope you are being facetious, but I'd bet you're not! :-) (...) It (...) (21 years ago, 30-Jul-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Mandatory life sentences create very dangerous, panicked offenders. If you were DUI and killed someone, and you KNEW that you were guaranteed a life sentence, what exactly do you lose in trying to run, possibly killing more people (think a DUI (...) (21 years ago, 1-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) This is an incredibly important consideration that the pro-Death Penalty and lock-em-up-and-throw...e-key-away people tend to totally ignore. There are a few things that do justify indefinite incarceration, but very few in my mind, for just (...) (21 years ago, 1-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Brown Girl in the Ring? Anyway, William Burroughs wrote an essay on this very idea in the late 70s or early 80s -- it was carried in Heavy Metal magazine. It loosely relates to his novel as screenplay, "Blade Runner." -- Hop-Frog (21 years ago, 1-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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(...) Nope, I was thinking of another one. It's probably been done several times. Frank (21 years ago, 1-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) One reference that would seem to fit your Libertarian philosophy is Michael G. Coney's "The Jaws That Bite, The Claws that Catch." But I don't think that's the one you're referring to. Dave! (21 years ago, 1-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz wrote: <snip> (...) I say it's LEXX :) (21 years ago, 5-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Tony Martin case: You can't {make up} better criticism of Liberals!
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(...) Gee, lot's of similar references here I guess. I'm thinking of Larry Niven's "The Patchwork Man" (at least I think that's the short story I'm thinking of - Niven actually keeps refering to organ banks). Frank (21 years ago, 5-Aug-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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