Subject:
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Re: What about the first?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 19 Feb 2003 20:28:40 GMT
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Viewed:
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1515 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
>
> > > It's not that I have a problem with religious fanatics, it's what those
> > > fanatics *do*. I would venture that 90% of the world's terrorism is
> > > perpetrated by Muslim fanatics.
> >
> >
> > I'd "venture" 99% of the terrorism the UK has suffered has been perpetrated
> > people who'd call themselves "Christians".
>
> The difference is that 99.5% of *Christians* would condemn their actions.
How do you know that? Christianity never impeded war or terrorist actions in
the past; they happen despite it, sometimes because of it.
It's void to say 99.5% of Christians condemn such violence. Why didn't you
write 99.5% of the people in general? That would probably be a much wider truth.
> How
> many in the Arab world condemn Extremist Muslims' actions? The silence is
> deafening.
Where do you get your vast knowledge of what goes on in the arab world? CNN
and such? They transmit what you're expecting to hear already.
Talking with actual arabs is a lot more instructive; forget the mosques - if
you were arab and wanted to understand the "western" civilization, would you
go to churches before anything else?
Try that. You'll be surprised how close the average arab and the average
european/american man feel the same issue (I know I was).
> > However, Christianity is not what
> > drives them. ? it?s greed, nationalism and to a lesser extent some form of
> > political ideology.
>
> So why bring Christianity into the discussion in the first place?
Why bring Islam?
> > Likewise, was the Oklahoma bombing perpetrated by a Christian, or a "loony" >who
> > happened to be a Christian? Furthermore, I'd be the last person to link
> > Israeli terrorism to the Jewish faith, [How many have died in the Middle East
> > due to
> > the interpretation of religious texts by right-wing extremists/nationalists in
> > the Christian and Jewish faiths?] but is Zionism not a form of religious
> > fundamentalism?
>
> Again, you analogy is flawed. The overwhelming majority of Christians and Jews
> *CONDEMN* terrorist acts perpetrated in the name of their respective
> religions. This is not the case in the Islamic world.
Again I must call your attention to the fact that the "Islamic world" goes
from Morrocco to the Western China; and what you see on the telly is always
the same places, always the same people, always the same words.
The further one gets from the Middle East region, the more one realizes how
wrongly our perception of muslims in general is guided - even though you'll
never admit it, if the dominant religion in the Middle East were
Christianism, there would still be conflict!
> > All this does not mean that nationalists [etc] do not use religion as a
> > recruiting tool. Nor does it mean that religion is not a common factor which
> > links some of the world?s ?victims?. Do you think the USA was attacked in 2001
> > because it is not a Muslim state, or because of perceptions regarding the US
> > foreign policy?
>
> If you believe that the US foreign policy is the cause of the attack on 9-11,
> then how would you explain the countless acts of terror of Islamic
> Fundamentalists around the world?
Part circumstance (they happening to be the religion "in between" all other
major religions, that is, Christianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism), and part
opportunity (they benefit from a sudden income of wealth without having a
stable society already.
I don't believe what happened in 9-11 was only due to American foreign
policy, though.
> The fact is that they are simply intolerant
> of *anyone* who does not view the world as they do. The reason for their
> terrorism is their hatred and intolerance.
Ok, let's try this angle:
When I was younger, my parents used to take me to a Dominican Friars' chapel
to attend mass; years later, when I knew it had been the Dominican Friars
who were in charge of the Inquisition, I was confused: if they had done that
and the gospels were still the same now as then, was I attending a service
guided by a criminal organization?
So I spoke with one of the Friars about this. What he told me then, I'll
never forget: "Those who did that were insane men in a time of great
changes; they found a motive, means, and then it became an escape goat. As
soon as the 'novelty' became common knowledge, the need for social
revolution faded - and the insanity was abandoned"
What I read in his words regarding "time of changes" was the age of
exploration: gold, then like now, makes men behave irrationally. Only
today's gold comes from oil pits rather than Monteczuma's treasure :-)
My point: massive intolerance it's not intrinsecal to Islam. *Now* it's
happening with Islam, as it happened with Christianity 500 years ago, and
the same way it's more than likely to happen with other creeds for as long
as there are men and women willing to follow organized religion.
Why is Islam the current, so to speak, unstable society? Because there has
been a quick shake of the social foundation in the past half century, and
the society was not ready yet. So there was a conservative reaction, a
"return to the purist values"; the escape goat became Israel (as always),
the means became the oil-dollars, and it all began.
Pedro
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: What about the first?
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| (...) I'll make my point below. (...) I don't watch CNN-- heck, I don't watch network news either because as you correctly point out, they are agenda-driven. (...) I agree, and here is my point. *Sensible*, rational Arabs need to SPEAK OUT against (...) (21 years ago, 19-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: What about the first?
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| (...) The difference is that 99.5% of *Christians* would condemn their actions. How many in the Arab world condemn Extremist Muslims' actions? The silence is deafening. (...) So why bring Christianity into the discussion in the first place? (...) (...) (21 years ago, 19-Feb-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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