Debate : 17665


Off-Topic / Debate / 17665

Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

I was just reading this news item: (URL) think it is extremely scary that a woman has been arrested on the sole evidence of a surveillance camera, and her sister is being charged with accessory to a crime. While the incident caught on tape might (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Kirby Warden

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes: We MUST avoid letting paranoia destroy our freedom. (...) It's a little late to be thinking like that. Millions of dollars have been handed over for hightech security just for this purpose. Here in (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Richard Marchetti

(...) to choose to make your point. I followed the link and found this paragraph: "Police have been searching for Gorman Toogood since September 13, when a surveillance camera in a department store parking lot videotaped her apparently slapping and (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Really? Do you generally think that aiding criminals should have no penalty? There may be issues surrounding this that I haven't thought through, but on first blush, it doesn't seem like a bad general policy to me. I would certainly intervene (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Richard Marchetti

(...) Yeah, really. It's hard to imagine how they could possibly know that the sister knows anything useful. I mean, do they have video footage of her seeing her sister do things? Not likely... Also, I believe in the right to remain silent -- to (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Kirby Warden

(...) But in this case the girl has no physical wounds. This suggests to me that the other woman may not have felt the girl was in any danger. It seems to me that this case goes further than just a child battery charge and giving aid to a criminal. (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Good. Chris (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Like what? Am I missing a bigger trend? (...) Um...what could be more damning than video footage? What on Earth _would_ you consider reasonable evidence? I haven't heard anything inappropriate about the handling of this case from the article (...) (22 years ago, 22-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) The Medical Students in Florida who turned out to: - not be able to be connected in any way to anything nefarious - in fact, didn't run the toll booth as originally reported The Isamic leader arrested in Portland because his luggage showed (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) OK, so did you just use those two as examples of the hundreds, or is that all you've got? I'm not trying to be trite about this, but I think you could find more than two civil rights abuses in a year on any given year since you've been alive. (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

I'm not sure why I continue debating here. It's hard to see all the sides of a person when the debate draws out like this. My initial reaction to this incident was based on a number of incidents in a very short time. In all likelihood I am (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) I was just talking with one of my friends (who happens to be a parent--no so with me) and he makes an astute observation-- Would this incident even be discussed if there was no 'art'? I mean, you take a kid, broken arms, cigarette burns, (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) I hope this was intentional understatement. If your child ends up in the hospital because of your type of punishment, your right to associate with small people should be stripped from you and you should be incarcerated in a psychiatric (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) It was--the problem with typing is that my humour, my flair, my rather gosh darn good looking self just doesn't shine thru. When I go for an understatement, I make it a *large* understatement. I will be clear, abuse=bad. Abuse=CS (Childrens (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) After a brief thought, and remembering from a class I took yesterday on the Meyers Briggs Type Indicator, I was just thinking of something that might be useful to add here about my debating style. As an ENFP, my way of working through problems (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Types of Personality (was: Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights?) —David Koudys

(...) I was an ENFP every time I was tested until relatively recently. I took the test on the website and it turns out that I'm now an INFP. Can someone's personality change like that? Of course, it could be just my age showing--I'm becoming more (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Types of Personality (was: Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights?) —Frank Filz

(...) I think type can change, but I would wonder more if the change is happening due to adaptation, not because your fundamental self has changed. I certainly don't always act as an ENFP, but the more I think about it, the more comfortable I am (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) Well, you're just a silly goofball for thinking that in ridiculous way. What's an ENFP? I believe a lot of that "thinking out loud" goes on here, but many times it's clarified as such. I know that I sometimes forget to disclaim, and I wind up (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) (URL) can find hundreds of descriptions on the web. This was the first which had an extensive description. Frank (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) Thank you for the link; I'd never even heard of "ENFP" before, so it was all news to me. But at a quick run-through, the test seems problematic. Consider these questions: Q: You want a job or a career that offers you the chance to travel and (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) Oops! Disregard most of that--I looked at the wrong test. The correct one on that site is apparently: (URL) However, aside from the precise questions, the methodology seems equally suspect. The user is asked for a series of bafflingly simple (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) Thanks for the link! I skimmed thru it now, and I'll give it a more throrough read tonite after work. I concur you shouldn't make any life-changing decisions on the basis of these types of tests. I liked them because, well, I was Extrovert, (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —James Brown

(...) Yup. I have taken the MBTI (as well as others) on multiple occasions, and I don't think I've ever gotten the same result twice. Extrovert vs Introvert is a particularly bad one for me - I exhibit characteristics of both, and different people (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) I didn't look at or take the test at this site, so I can't comment on their specific set of questions. The first time I took the indicator, I balked at these binary questions. The trick is to pick the answer which best fits your true feelings. (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes: <snip> (...) Your Type is INFP Introverted Intuitive Feeling Perceiving Strength of the preferences % 44 33 22 56 Dave K. If I were to guess, I would say that Dave! is ESTP, Chris is ISTJ and Larry is (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) OK, I took this silliness. Chris' Type is INFP (44 67 33 33) I am theoretically exactly as introverted as DaveK. Chris (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) It is silliness. But it's like The Simpsons silliness--is fun! And if you're not careful about it, you may learn something about yourself :) I'm not all that introverted--I like going to parties and such, but by the end of an evening, I'm (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) You just described for yourself exactly what the MBTI means by Introverted. MBTI Introverted doesn't mean "doesn't like being with people" it means something more like "isn't energized by being with people". Your SO is a classic MBTI (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) Ah, but then you've fallen into the trap already! The whole point of these Myers-Briggs (or Voigt-Kampf, if you prefer) tests is that they're designed to yield apparently "correct" personality assessments, no matter how the answers come out. (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) Done and done! I remember a time in my youth when my mom was so into 'dream interpretation'. She and a few of her close friends would get together and discuss their dreams, look up symbols in books about that stuff that were available at the (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) I think we have to understand when subjective measurements are being used, but I don't think we need to reject them. Food preferences are totally subjective, but should someone ignore them because they don't have the objective data on why they (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) But that's the whole problem--the so-called "personality types" are as subjective as astrological assessments or phrenological readings. And so are the criteria that make up each "type." (...) Trouble is, you can usually discern when you're (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) It may be a good start to discuss what people think the differences between Introvert and Extrovert Intuitive and Sensing Feeling and Thinking Perceiving and Judging Though, looking at it now, it probably isn't because even these global ideas (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) Deeper and deeper... In an English course a few years ago we discussed that bane of rational thought: Postmodernism. In a clever ploy to make PM seem like the thing to be, the author of one of our texts assembled list that I will paraphrase: (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) <snip> (...) Now here's a debate I'm so moveable on is not really funny--my girlfriend, taking the courses at the Institute of Christian Studies, expounds the ideals that come with PM--that there is literally no one "right way" of doing (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) I'm not sure that I'd say the test is arbitrary. If we are to discount any subjective things, then there is a lot which totally falls apart (for an example related to the original post in this thread, demonstrate to me that there is no (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) The question of what is and what is not a crime is determined by (in many cases centuries of) tradition and by societal consensus. The question of what is "INFP" and what is "ENTP" is determined by the whim of Myers-Briggs. For that matter, (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) Ok, two questions: 1. Is there any method of understanding personality in a way which allows one to make guarded generalizations that you feel is sufficiently objective to be useful? 2. Do we just not bother trying to understand different (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) A fine question! Off the top of my head I'd say that too general a framework (as I perceive Myers-Briggs to be) isn't much more useful than no framework at all. As you've correctly stated, the user needs to be aware of the limitations of the (...) (22 years ago, 25-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

My3rs-Briggs waste of time (was Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights?) —Thomas Stangl

ENOUGH already! This thread, as usual for many in .debate, no longer has a DAMNED thing to do with the Subject. If you are going to continue this tomfoolery, at least continue it under a new Subject, so people can easily set it on Ignore. I was (...) (22 years ago, 25-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

My3ers Briggs chatter (was Re: Is this) —Erik Olson

If you have questions about the test, READ THE BOOK it was originally published in, or one of the others (see note). Go to a library. It's good for you. The terms used in the test are defined in the book. The type indicator is not a general theory (...) (22 years ago, 25-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Richard Marchetti

(...) Me, I like to read someone else's horoscope and pretend that it was intended for me and me alone! I mean, it was -- right?! =) -- Hop-Frog (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) Well sure, for you. But what about the rest of us? 8^) Dave! (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Erik Olson

I have collected a largish sample (two batches of 30) of these tests before. After a few I noticed there are two types of test-takers: those who are all-or-nothing to whichever side of each scale (almost half the sample), and the rest. I said this (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) (URL) a quick test--it's not definitive, but it did peg me at the same thing the test I took in high school, college and university pegged me at (ENFP), and recently it pegged me at INFP... less the partier I gather ;) Dave K. (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Christopher L. Weeks

(...) Did you feel like I was attacking you? I was kind of perplexed at your response to my response, but to see this actually worries me. I thought that we _were_ working through an issue by sharing our thoughts in a dialog. Maybe we have (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

(...) I did feel attacked. I know I am quick to react when I feel attacked (one definite correlation with ENFP), and have probably overreacted here. I'm not sure that we have root-level misunderstandings, but more that we have percieved different (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Dave Schuler

(...) If I broke into your home and stole your stereo, but you had no other evidence than your in-home video surveillance system, wouldn't you at least want me to be questioned? (...) Okay, what if I broke into your house, stole your stereo, and was (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Richard Marchetti

(...) Ah, the light shines... Yes, evidence is a sticky issue. And we did use to have other standards -- the manner in which we arrive at a hopefully objective approximation of the "truth" is ever changing, however slowly. Sometimes the change is (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —Frank Filz

Very well said. Thanks for providing some background. One point I'd like to add to the punishment/end of punishment (or replace "punishment" with "containment" or whatever if it feels more comfortable): I am comfortable with "punishments" which (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights? —David Koudys

(...) And I am in the unique position of agreeing wholeheartedly with Chris. There was a wee bit of a ruckus in LA a while back, and a granny watching the news footage of the looting and pillaging saw her grandson doing said mischief. She reported (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Larry Pieniazek

(...) Don't get me started on these cameras... they're bad. It's not the rights violation claim (which is false, unless you report the car stolen because it actually was stolen, you're responsible for what people do with your property), it's the (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Dave Schuler

(...) See? I've always told you that you can't trust private corporations to run things! Seriously though, I'd be interested to hear more about the truncated yellows. If the cameras are "causing" accidents because people are pushing the existing (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Scott Arthur

(...) Not in the UK. We always have to maintain a safe stopping distance... which makes sense. As I understand it, the length of the yellow is some kind of (...) Normally the focus is on the "intergreen" period - this will be 5-7 seconds for a (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Dave Schuler

(...) Forget all that. Can you tell me why, when I see those Police Video shows from the UK, the surveillance cameras in the cop cars always show the speed in MPH? Are you folks finally seeing the light and giving up on that cumbersome, (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Scott Arthur

(...) We don't have "cop cars", we have "police cars", "panda" cars and "jam sandwiches". ;) (...) Road signs (speed and distances) have always been in MPH. I have no idea why that was seen as being worth keeping. Scott A (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —James Brown

(...) Google it. You'll be inundated with a full range from "well-reasoned and documented" to "wacky paranoid government-out-to-get-us". But it's fairly obviously an issue, and there's good information out there on it. If the cameras are "causing" (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Frank Filz

Hm, interesting. I have seen reports of fewer accidents, but I wonder how well you can trust them. The incentives sure are wrong, and certainly present a true risk of incorrect reaction (cutting short the yellow light time). Another interesting (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —David Koudys

In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes: <snip> (...) Now there it is. Frank, run for office and I'm voting for you. We seem to be reacting to things instead of being proactive! Make sure people learn how to drive properly! Maybe we should (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Scott Arthur

(...) We have a similar issue with speed camera's in the UK: "The effect of the camera on driver behaviour can create new problems such as erratic braking and acceleration and distract drivers from the traffic flow." See: (URL) (...) Which is just (...) (22 years ago, 23-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Thomas Stangl

(...) I have a SEVERE issue with this statement. If someone borrows your car (with your blessing) and commits a crime with it, how could you possibly say it is the car owner's fault? Unless the owner is sitting next to the driver when the crime was (...) (22 years ago, 24-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

Re: red light cameras CAUSE accidents —Larry Pieniazek

(...) More on this topic... a class action suit is in the works in DC (URL) the following is first in a series on these noxious devices (from last year): (URL) (21 years ago, 21-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)