Subject:
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Re: Is this an overreaction and a violation of rights?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:32:00 GMT
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Viewed:
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386 times
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Christopher Weeks wrote:
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Frank Filz writes:
>
> > We have been hearing about some very scary arrests and detainments in
> > the past weeks. We MUST avoid letting paranoia destroy our freedom.
>
> Like what? Am I missing a bigger trend?
The Medical Students in Florida who turned out to:
- not be able to be connected in any way to anything nefarious
- in fact, didn't run the toll booth as originally reported
The Isamic leader arrested in Portland because his luggage showed
positive in an initial scan for explosives (no bomb present in the
luggage, initial scan could be entirely a false positive) and had a one
way ticket and lots of cash (without a paying job). Sure, in this case
there is a _possibility_ that he is planning on delivering some cash to
a bunch of terrorists. But I think we need more proof than just someone
having a bunch of cash and having their luggage show positive to a scan
which has numerous possibilities for why it would register a false
positive.
> > I was just reading this news item:
> >
> > http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/09/21/video.child.beating/index.html
> >
> > I think it is extremely scary that a woman has been arrested on the sole
> > evidence of a surveillance camera, and her sister is being charged with
> > accessory to a crime. While the incident caught on tape might appear to
> > be a criminal offense, we have little more to go on.
>
> Um...what could be more damning than video footage? What on Earth _would_
> you consider reasonable evidence?
>
> I haven't heard anything inappropriate about the handling of this case from
> the article you sighted or from other sources.
>
> This actually seems pretty cut and dried to me. An ignorant social misfit
> abuses her kid on film and admits to it. So she's arrested and her kids are
> protected from further abuse. What is it exactly that troubles you?
My question is can you REALLY tell from the video (which I haven't seen
- maybe it is more damning)? What are the true circumstances. All I know
is that videos can look an awful lot more sinister than first
appearances show. I believe our standards of evidence have in the past
required more than just video evidence. And what value is the
confession?
As far as the sister, my question is what is the belief that she knows
something? If she was in the car, then she is a potential witness, and
perhaps might have something to show. On the other hand, if she was, her
non-cooperation might be an unwillingness to supply information which
would be misinterpreted.
I say that there is a serious chance of misinterpretation here, and
without any other evidence, an arrest is extremely disturbing. If you
show me damage consistent with a history of abuse (if she was really
punching the child, and this was anything other than a one-time loss of
cool which did no permanent damage [remember, the child has been
examined and shows no permanent damage], then a complete examination of
the child should turn something up).
I just find this incident very disturbing as it seems to be another case
of jumping to conclusions with limited evidence. No matter what comes
out of it, this woman's life is permanently trashed, and even if she if
found completely innocent, has probably lost her children. I think
children need to be protected without removing them at the slightest
rumor that their parents are not perfect, counter to the trend I see.
I have another reason for being EXTREMELY worried about how we handle
child abuse cases. I volunteer as a youth advisor. From what I am
seeing, I am putting myself at risk of being destroyed. I once was left
with an incredibly tough decision, and fortunately nothing went wrong.
One time, when leaving the church after youth group, I saw a young woman
from a younger youth group sitting on the curb. I was the last adult
present. It turned out her high school brother was supposed to have
driven her home, but was mad at her and left without her. She had
already called her parents. I chose to stay with her until her parents
arrived. What if she had in her anger at her brother made an accusation
which brought me in? What if she accused me of some kind of abuse? To
top it off, I'm not sure she was totally mentally stable. I sometimes
think I'm insane (and I've started to accept the reasons AFOL clubs can
not allow minors in - the risks of destruction of personhood are just
too high for a group which can't cover itself with liability coverage).
Believe me, if this particular woman is guilty, I want to make sure
appropriate action is taken, but I want to convict her on solid
evidence, not ONLY video camera footage from one angle.
What if the "punch" wasn't really a punch, but was the woman just
clenching her fist trying to control her anger? While I completely
disagree with slapping children, our culture has not yet chosen to make
it by itself a crime, in fact, many are strongly in favor of slapping
returning to use in the schools. I don't think it's right to destroy
someone's life because they are operating under a well established set
of rules and we decide to change them. I do want to change the rules
though, but lets not expect people to overnight suddenly understand the
new rules.
To be honest, I was hoping someone would post more information. Right
now, what I see is a gross overreaction. Give me more evidence.
Hmm, the link now points to a different article I read. It now indicates
the sister was visible on the tape (I don't remember seeing that
before). In that case, I am comfortable with pressuring her to cooperate
if she is not cooperating (assuming she now has a lawyer - I will accept
here refusing to cooperate without a lawyer) because she can provide
information which can swing this case towards a real case, or towards a
sad but common incident of a parent slapping their child.
We are clearly reacting to these cases (including the other two I
mentioned) differently because of all that has gone on recently. We need
to be doubly sure that a rash of extreme incidents doesn't propel us
into an environment where we shoot first and ask questions later. We
need to be extra vigilant that appropriate action is taken, and
appropriate compensation is made when a mistake is discovered (in my
mind, those students have a case against the state of Florida, and the
teaching hospital they were heading to which has now told them they are
unwanted).
Frank
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