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On Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:18:59 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) But your own Declaration of Independance states that everyone is entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness. Health is necessary to life, yet (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I haven't been convinced that more money will always create better education. Public education, like everything else run by the government, is almost by definition inefficient and wasteful. Still, as bad as it may be, I received my entire (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I'm going to refer you to the federalist papers on this, and they're a hard slog, believe me, I'm re-reading them now, as I periodically do. Summarizing, though: I acknowledge that a quick read of the phrase "LL&PH" may leave one with the (...) (25 years ago, 3-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 08:50:13 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) I wouldn't know the answers, either. And I agree, too many parents take too little interest in their children. However, where chronic underfunding exists in a (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Sat, 3 Jul 1999 20:56:01 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) I do not have these federalist papers to which you refer, so must trust your *interpretation* of them. Assuming a copy exists on the 'net, I shall read (...) (25 years ago, 4-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Too much work. You go to www.excite.com Type federalist papers into the search box Go from there (I found them at the 3rd listing, skipping the first 2) Shakin near everything is on the web - you just have to want to find it. Remedying one's (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It does. A quick search will turn it up online. I shan't provide the free good of doing your research for you in this case. I went out and bought a copy in the bookstore because I wanted to be able to read it on the plane. Note that the papers (...) (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Mind posting the ISBN (if you have it handy) or title of the edition you bought? I'd like to pick it up myself and the first 4 versions I've checked out on Amazon do not appear to have much in the form of commentary. (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Commentary may have been too strong a word, it has an intro, some editing, and a cross referenced constitution I have the Rossiter edition ISBN 0-451-62451-2 (25 years ago, 5-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Thanks. That one's nice and cheap on Amazon. I think I'll swing by my used bookstore tomorrow and see if I can find a copy even cheaper, though. Hate to pay shipping on a 5 dollar book. Better than paying tax on it, though. ;) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 00:20:22 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Indeed it is, but no harm in asking should someone just happen to have them! (...) Prefer metacrawler...., but when back online will go for yours. (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:06:30 GMT, Larry Pieniazek uttered the following profundities... (...) Requested on the off-chance someone had them? I do have a fair few documents from wiretap.spies or whatever it was called, I downloaded almost everything (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) A friend of mine became a VP at Chase Manhattan Bank/Chemical Bank with an AS degree. He built himself up by taking courses when needed, and just going out and showing that he was capable of doing the job. (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I think that was me. (...) I'll be paying almost $2000 to move in August because I have lots and lots of large things. When I was 19 I moved away from my parents' house - 300 miles for about $20 in gas. Everything I owned fit in my car after (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) More money spent certain ways CAN help, but it won't be spent that way. (...) Right. Parents need to be educated too. Public school should include the whole family and if they refuse to participate, society ought to frown on it dramatically (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Careful what you agree to. They're a serious read. (...) No, only things that require resources to acquire. (...) And that's how it should be. (...) I'm with Larry, they should be done away with. My kid was inoculated on the dime of my (...) (25 years ago, 6-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I agree. I've actually thought a plan of universal reversible sterilization would do just fine, with some form of proof of worthiness to be un-sterilized. The worthiness part is the tricky part - I know I'm not qualified to make decisions like (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) For sake of clarity, I only think such a procedure should be employed for those who demonstrate the unwillingness to care for their young. People can disagree with me in any number of ways and still have the RIGHT to have kids as long as they (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I grew up during the 60s - remember the era that fought for equal rights, fought against the war in Vietnam, fought for student rights, fought against oppression of the poor by the rich, fought to get assistance to those who were in need. You (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Tue, 6 Jul 1999 03:30:06 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) I have downloaded that, the constitution, BoR, DoI, from Project Gutenburg. (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The 60s is the decade that invented the socially-acceptable slacker as far as I can tell. I get so sick of you people ranting insanely about how grand those times were. How exactly did you and yours fight for those things? Equal rights - I (...) (25 years ago, 7-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) So did I, although you have some seniority on me, the 70's were my decade of activism. (...) Good causes. I was prepared to resist Vietnam if it had dragged on much longer. What a useless little war. A waste of national treasure, and human (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) were (...) Why, because we had the nerve to see that things were wrong and fought to right them? Or because your generation has done absolutely nothing but reap the goods for nothing. (...) In the 60s you didn't have to hire anyone. You could (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Christopher L. Weeks wrote in message <3783B529.73A74C27@c...ri.edu>... (...) against (...) were (...) Groovy! <silly debate snipped> (...) Chris, I tend to agree with you more often than with Ed "Boxer" Jones, but if you would advocate the above, I (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) See my reply to Weeks. (...) were (...) Again read my reply to Weeks. (...) Construction workers are employed by construction companies. Those companies have winter layoffs. Those employees, having worked 6 months or more, are entitled to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) You're stretching here, you know. This notion that you paid in advance for food stamps and therefore are entitled to get them kind of runs counter to the notion that the needy deserve help whether they paid for it or not. You can't have it (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Yeah, I could do that too, but lately, with wrist and elbow pains setting in, I've decided I should spend less time reading in front of the computer and more time reading in my recliner. I'll be happy when portable e-books become commonplace, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, you can, and it was the intent of the original program - to assist those with no income and to assist those who are underemployeed. (...) [snip] (...) Well, actually, he has to pay unemployment insurance (which is part of his taxes). (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Saw it. (...) Please explain why this is a good thing and not the inmates running the asylum. Please justify how burning down the administration building is a good way to send the message that the school is not delivering appropriate classes, (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) No, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. That violates causality. No, you cannot make two opposing/conflicting arguments at the same time. That violates logic. That's what you're trying to do. So you cannot have it both ways. (...) (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) [snip] (...) As a former teacher, two of the biggest problems with today's schools are: 1. lack of funding - classrooms are overcrowded, teacher salaries over the last 30 years have actually decreased (differnce of 1960's salary times (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) The politicians they own cast votes on their behalf all the time - much more often than on the behalf of the people who elect them. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) But 3 lefts do;-) -John (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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"Christopher L. Weeks" wrote: <snipped a lot of incendiary rhetoric> I feel as though the climate in this newsgroup had grown very hostile. So much so, that I am going to unsubscribe from it because I choose not expose myself what I feel is (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) For the sake of clarity I agree with the sort of punitive sterilization you describe here, for those reasons. I just think people can prove in many ways that they most likely will BE unfit to care for their children. Like I said, I don't think (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Oh, I don't know about lack of funding. The per pupil amount spent has gone up a lot even in constant dollars. NY is particularly pernicious, bumping up against 10K a (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: What is insurance? (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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<378410DA.E6670E74@voyager.net> <slrn7o85bv.7bp.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) An honest politician is one who stays bought. There are almost no honest politicians. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The man obviously has never been anywhere NEAR Boston. Sometimes it only takes 2, sometimes it takes 5, and sometimes you just can't get there from here. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) That may be your reason or your idea of why people school tax levies down. I disagree. People vote down tax levies simply because they do no want to pay taxes. (...) Is it any easier to be involved in a private school for someone who works? (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3784A057.A9F1E5A7@voyager.net> <FEK0ss.3A1@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Why, exactly? (...) Good question. And the answer is yes. Private schools, being market driven, have reason to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) When corporations are no longer immortal people (under the law), I'll worry about 'corporation rights'. Steve (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Good idea. You might at least want to take a step outside, and check the name on the shingle. This ng is supposed to be for debate. It occasionally gets hot, but rarely hostile. Steve (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Well, I used to watch "Cheers". Does that count? Actually, my favorite show of all time is St. Elsewhere. Best show ever. Period. ER is merely a slick rip-off. *Any* good drama today owes its success to St. E, and possibly Hill Street Blues. (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) That's amazing. When I taught - there were parent/teacher conferences every month in the evening and twice a year on Saturdays. But weren't there also PTA meetings in the evening? Couldn't you have made your complaint known at those meetings? (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3784B28D.82177A5A@voyager.net> <FEK6nL.DDI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Bully for you. Some public schools are better, some are worse. Point is that parents have no recourse when (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3784B28D.82177A5A@voyager.net> <FEK6nL.DDI@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Missed these. (...) When I speak of the ability to discriminate, so am I. (...) I don't believe I said that. I said (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Or San Francisco. (...) Nash Bridges? Oh, wait. You said "good". :P -Tom McD. when replying, note that the Ghirardelli Chocolate Factory at Fisherman's Wharf now sells little foil-wrapped chocolate spamcakes. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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Now, I thought John Neal had come up with a good debate topic, but he moved the thread to the Boston group. Can I argue here? Is that legal? If so, I think Barney Miller was the Best Show ever. Period. ST. E and HSB took too much time (but they (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) Technically moreso here than in the Boston group. But I spose it could continue there if folks don't complain. (...) Ooo hadn't thought of that one. I really enjoyed that show. My two favs on that show were Steve Landesberg and Jack Soo. -Tom (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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(...) broken. (...) Not at all, see my response to Larry on this - you claimed to lack an appropriate flippant response - so I provided it. But I must say, that the original suggestion of sterilization made my skin crawl. (...) But on to the serious (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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Hi all, First, I would like to say a few words about the sterilization thread and Thomas' claim that there was hostility here. I want to apologize. When I first brought up sterilization it was somewhat (but not totally) facetious. I included the (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I got a big smile out of that. (...) It wasn't a joke, but it wasn't exactly serious either. (...) Right. I'm straight-up 100% agreed. But, that's not the world we live in. We live in a world where people think that robbing from the rich to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I addressed this more fully in another note, but it was never my intent to come off as hostile. I'm Sorry that Thomas and others feel that way. How would you like me to tone my arguments, or are just some topics too much for some of you? (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) It sounds as if you're saying that the morally 'best' course of action would be to stand off and not take the unemployment. I disagree strongly. I think that if you disagree with the system in the way that you (and I) seem to, you owe it to (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3784C71B.3C4F5D8@uswest.net> <FEK9oB.J3q@lugnet.com> <FEKDqD.3tE@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I did enjoy BM, I also liked Barney (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I agree that this is a problem, but your number 2 below really drives the nail through the board. (...) It's advancing. Here at the University of Missouri, there are (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Christopher L. Weeks wrote in message <3784F884.EBFE1372@c...ri.edu>... (...) why do (...) Chris, I know we are on the same side and all, but following your moral further, it is also right to break the laws, as you see fit, because it hurts the (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Statistical studies only support, and can never _prove_ a particular hypothesis. At least if you're rational and believe (generally) that the scientific method is valid. Ed can't possibly prove that, he can only support it with evidence. (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I don't see how my logic lead to this conclusion. But, I agree that breaking some laws is required to maintain moral purity. Since the US government uses my tax dollars to kill people with whom I have no beef, I do feel kind of sleazy allowing (...) (25 years ago, 8-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Reply-To: cjc@newsguy.com Message-Id: <slrn7oalrb.7jg.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.4.3 UNIX) (...) Or people have grown so fed-up with every new property tax increase being touted as "necessary to turn education around" and yet year (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Wow, that's really disgusting. I think maybe Denny's watched Roger and Me a few too many times. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I guess you mean a duplex. Sure, why not? Especially given the current state of the law that makes it so freakin difficult to get rid of losers once you find out they're scummy and you don't want them or their loud, dirty, possibly dangerous (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) The only openly hostile comments I've seen so far were directed at you by Ed, and it seems he's claiming those were examples of flippancy, not hostility. Some topics are hot, some people get hot while debating them. I'd like to think I haven't (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Mike Stanley wrote: Just teasing here, Mike, mind you, but... (...) the juxtaposition of these two parts of your post made me laugh a bit at the irony. But hey, I don't get out much. For the record I don't think crap is that bad a word any more. Too (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<slrn7oanmg.7jg.cjc@...S.UTK.EDU> <37856F42.4B2DD2B7@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Apparently so in North Carolina also, at least if children are around (the judge did say the part of (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Are you sure that wasn't a guy in Michigan? It made the national news. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3785FAB8.391B@mindspring.com> <3785FDDB.7779CCF2@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) Maybe I didn't pay attention to details, but I could have sworn it was North Carolina, will have to (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) I bet that guy wishes he'd gotten his 15 seconds of fame a different way. (...) 90 days and a canoe, yes. Can't say about the "children vs. women" bit. (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: federalist ISBN (was Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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On Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:12:24 GMT, Mike Stanley uttered the following profundities... (...) Have a Gestetner photocopier hooked up to the network, so it will be pumped through there, to make an A5 sized booklet. (A5=210mm x 150mm) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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(...) Actually, it's an old law. And the guy didn't just utter the f-word a few times, he was all aggro-ed out, and shouting so people a fair distance away could hear him, and on and on. Personally, I don't care what language he was using. He (...) (25 years ago, 9-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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<3785FAB8.391B@mindspring.com> <378640fa.5882690@lugnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (...) I mostly come to the same conclusion you do but for different reasons. While the owner has the right to (...) (25 years ago, 10-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) Boston is one of the rarities in America, a non-rectangular designed city. Or rather, non-planned. Most inner cities here are the same - often the medieval moats are still running through them as well, so you can do nice liquid recreation. (...) (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun, lugnet.loc.us.ma.bos)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) Actually, we had the same reasons. You just described it much better. Steve (25 years ago, 12-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net> wrote in message news:3784A319.4DF80A...ger.net... (...) ...and to make a left turn, you have to have an item run interference for you, whether it be pedestrian, ambulance, or homeless man pushing a shopping (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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Jeremy Dailey wrote in message ... (...) shopping (...) Or other car... Now Boston driving isn't THAT bad... I've never had an accident in Boston (near Boston, yea, a couple)... Another fun one people "discover". There are lots of lights where (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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| | Re: Rights to free goods? (was Re: What happened?
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(...) This reminded me of something my Driving Instructor told the class. He said if an accident is unavoidable, always steer for the softer target. My friend piped up, "So if we have a choice between a brick wall and a person, we should hit the (...) (25 years ago, 13-Jul-99, to lugnet.off-topic.fun)
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