Subject:
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Re: Community Policing is a Good Thing(TM) (Was: Re: Do you think there is a market)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.admin.general
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Date:
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Wed, 23 Jan 2002 05:33:04 GMT
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I was going to reply to Kyle directly, but Frank, you gave me a better
springboard. :-)
"Frank Filz" <ffilz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3C4E370A.6D598D4F@mindspring.com...
> Kyle Beatty wrote:
> >
> > In lugnet.admin.general, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > In lugnet.admin.general, Tim Courtney writes:
> >
> > > Yes indeed. We all have a right and a responsibility to work to make • LUGNET
> > > a better place. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
> >
> > This sentiment is not friendly. It is arrogant and has a stink of
> > martiality. It really bugs me, I'm sorry to say. I am unlikely to do any • of
> > the above.
>
> It may be bluntly stated, but frankly, if you are not here to work with
> all the members and users of Lugnet to make Lugnet a better place, I
> think you are in the wrong place.
Exactly, I agree.
The sentiment 'lets make LUGNET a better place' however, is a very bright,
friendly, polite sentiment. We want a community which is inviting. The
chaos that stems from people getting in the way of making LUGNET better, or
disregarding social norms (and refusing to learn them when they are politely
outlined) makes LUGNET an unfriendly place.
'Lead, follow, or get out of the way' expresses the attitude that if you
aren't here to build up, maybe this isn't your place.
> Take a look at the Lugnet plan for some of Todd's and Suzanne's original
> ideas:
>
> http://www.lugnet.com/admin/plan/
The second page of the plan says, "LUGNET is designed to unite, enrich, and
help people share." How united will we be if there are no enforced social
norms? If all is disregarded and an 'anything goes' environment takes over
on LUGNET. This is the attitude of those who are trying to restrict
community policing. Community Policing is a Good Thing(TM).
(we just need to figure out how to do it more effectively)
> > There has been insufficient restraint so far in the cause of • 'correction'.
> > The initial 'correction' (re T) that caused the current brouhaha comes • off
> > frankly oafish. I don't mean to be rude, but that was my reaction. (A • crash
> > course on when assertion is really necessary might be in order.)
>
> Are you implying Larry is wrong to do as the law requires and protect
> his (and his associates) property? Do you feel a trademark is not
> something to be protected? Trademarks have been lost because they were
> allowed to become common terms. Perhaps Larry is sometimes too blunt,
> but sometimes bluntness is necessary (and Todd can be more blunt than
> Larry when he needs to).
I *think* he was referring to me and the Iain Hendry one. My interpretation
at least when he said '(re T).' Anyways, I agree with what you said above.
The only error I admit to committing during that instance was crossposting
to admin.general on the first reply. I stand by the rest of my words and
actions in the situation with Iain and Richard and the members of
rtlToronto.
> > > But I have zero interest in hearing from those that think that any • community
> > > guidance is too much. Zero.
> >
> > This is not a constructive, useful attitude.
The issues have already been discussed, its (to borrow from someone)
'ploughed ground.' Its been established by many here that community
policing is good and not bad. In every private conversation I've had with
someone from LUGNET on the topic, they've agreed. We have a case of a few
people who want to establish an anything goes environment, or be a thorn in
everyone's side (Scott).
No need to discuss the merits of community policing. They've already been
established. We do need to discuss how to effectively do it, and how to
excercise the social control to bring new users on to the same wavelength of
making LUGNET a better place.
(kinda an off the subject comment, but posting auciton spam in a theme group
is like tossing a cigarette out the window of a car. There's a proper place
for it, and its damaging when not put in its proper place)
> Lugnet is attempting to be the kind of place where people can come and
> relax and share their passions. This is best done in an environment
> where the prodding is gentle and not overly authoritarian.
Yep. Usually prods from an admin come off as authoritarian, simply because
they wear the badge. I dunno why prods from non-admins are still taken as
authoritarian here on LUGNET. Part of it is the method the prodder uses,
part of it is the 'don't tell me what to do' attitude of the prodee.
I think we should all work to develop a system of prodding that can be used
by the average community member who wants to positively influence LUGNET.
And we should also work to curb the negative response to proper, polite
prodding.
We need to enforce our social norms if the climate of LUGNET is going to be
restored back to the way it was in the beginning. If everyone works towards
those norms, the burden of their enforcement is not put on a small handful
of people who already have their hands full.
I keep seeing 'Neighborhood Watch' signs in my head. ;-)
> This is best
> accomplished by everyone taking a role in guiding the community down
> constructive paths. If everyone was doing this, there would be no need
> for such blunt words and "attitudes" because folks would see someone
> asking nicely that some unacceptable action not be repeated, and would
> say to themselves "yes, I agree, the original action was uncalled for
> and the gentle prodding was appropriate" and the issue quietly dies, or
> the transgressor doesn't understand and either continues the same action
> (and gets asked again, perhaps by a different person, perhaps eventually
> by an administrator with authority) or enters a dialogue to understand
> why their action was considered inappropriate (I would see nothing wrong
> with a sequence something like:
[snip] Agreed.
> Of course if this is the third theme group such a conversation has
> occurred after one of Fred's posts well, then it may be time for less
> gentle discussion with Fred.
Yep. Start off with gentle prodding in almost all circumstances, unless its
totally clear the person has been told before and really does know better.
Be sensitive to potential issues like language barriers (I can think of a
particular poster in the .cad groups who isn't an effective communicator for
that reason) but be clear in what behavioral change is expected.
> Unfortunately, this is not how Lugnet has been running. Some of us have
> felt that no one has been at the helm recently, though we think we
> understand some of the reasons for that.
For me, after some off-LUGNET discussion, this sentiment has diminished for
me. I feel more confident in the administration and also believe we need to
excercise a bit more patience when it comes to expressing this perception in
public.
(not at all implying you were wrong to make the above statement though!)
This is more suited for an off-LUGNET discussion though, IMO, perhaps at
BricksWest? :-)
> In any case, since we have
> perceived a degeneration of Lugnet we are concerned, and concerned
> people sometimes use stronger and more blunt language than might be
> optimal. Many of us have invested a lot of time and some to a lot of
> money because we hope to create a place which is easy and fun to
> participate in.
Exactly. For me, I've put 5.5 years of myself into this community. I know
a small handful of people who that number seems like piddlesticks to ;-),
but its still a long time and a lot of energy. I've volunteered a lot of
myself to make this community better in places off of (but tied into) LUGNET
(through the community). I have a vested interest in seeing LUGNET continue
to be a positive place to be, and in seeing the community grow. This is why
I'm so passionate about what I believe here.
> I have a hard time trying to explain what community means to me, and
> what community building is, but I do know that Lugnet is central to the
> LEGO toy fan community and that mostly online community is every bit as
> real as the mostly face-to-face community I experience at my church and
> related gatherings. Lugnet is not the only online community I have
> participated in, I have been participating in online community for about
> 15 years (and I'm sure some here have participated longer).
When LUGNET prospers, the AFOL hobby prospers. LUGNET is the center of the
AFOL hobby universe, its the largest medium through which we communicate.
Naturally, those who have invested a lot into LUGNET want to see it continue
to be a pleasant place to be, and see it continue to grow. We want to see
the social norms extended to the new users so we can continue to have a
pleasant place to be.
The social norms which exist on LUGNET, some of them established by Todd and
Suz, others which developed from the early community, are here for a good
reason. They were developed because of previous experience with a less than
ideal medium, RTL. That's why auction and market posts have their own
group, that's why we run around acting like Compartmentalized Dorks(TM), but
through and through, we're a great bunch of people who want to keep our
living space clean and inviting to others.
> I think the problem is not the initial "policing" post, but the
> follow-up brawl.
Yup. Its what happens when people are too big in their own minds to admit
they're wrong. They gotta make a big excuse for it, and a big stink to
announce the excuse, etc etc...
> When a negative reaction to a polite request occurs, you are right, one
> does need to step back and examine the situation. However, if the
> request is made in the right spirit, a negative reaction suggests
> someone either doesn't understand why they have done wrong or someone
> who just doesn't care. Someone who doesn't understand needs and deserves
> education. Someone who doesn't care should be shown the door. Would you
> put up with a drunk at one of your parties who cusses people for asking
> him cool it?
Exactly.
> > > This really is the crux, I think. No matter how polite you are in your
> > > request, if the twits come swarming out and interfere, it is difficult • to
> > > make forward progress.
> >
> > Then progress in a different direction and Let. It. Go.
>
> So we should just Let It Go and let Lugnet become like RTL? We should
> let folks fill lugnet.trains with announcements of their eBay auctions?
> That's what you're asking for.
Yep. And that's a destructive attitude.
> > Our visions of Lugnet are not absolutely aligned, but they are mostly • the
> > same. The key is to be able to disagree without getting wrapped up in a • knot.
>
> You are right, it is important to be able to disagree without getting
> tangled, but it is also important that everyone realize they need to
> play a part. And part of that part they need to play is to ask
> themselves if a complaint is valid. If they are not willing to do so,
> and especially if they repeatedly do so, it is right for the rest of the
> community to ask they be removed, or at least be given a stern warning.
The LUGNET Community is what everyone makes it.
-Tim
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