Subject:
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Re: The Brick Testament: A Family Stoned and a City Massacred
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 16 Sep 2004 06:26:59 GMT
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Viewed:
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1998 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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Jesus summed it up nicely into: “Love God with all of your heart,
soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.”
That’s all you really need to know and do.
But I think you are being a little disingenuous WRT to worshipping a God.
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How so? (And I ask this sincerely!)
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Read below.
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If you could describe an ideal God whom to worship, what would He be like?
I have an idea what you will say, but I want to hear about the God of Dave!
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My spider-sense tells me that this is an attempt to trick me into formulating
an ontological argument for God’s existence, but I’ll give it a try anyway.
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No, no, not at all. My secret suspicion was that you could never worship any
kind of god. I think I was correct by your responses below...
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First of all, I’m not sure that I would worship any being for two
reasons:
Any entity who requires my worship isn’t worthy of my worship.
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Never said worship was required. Besides, if it is your ideal God, then He
wouldn’t require it, no?
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Any entity who’d be bothered by my lack of worship isn’t worthy of my
worship.
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Again, it’s your ideal God.
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I might really, really admire some entity or other, and I might have
tremendous respect for some entity, but worship? I can’t see it, honestly.
Maybe I have trouble with the definition, since it’s steeped in a kind of
belief that I do not share--could you provide a guideline for what “worship”
entails? I mean, during my zany youth I “worshipped” a certain actress who
shall remain nameless, but I suspect that you have something else in mind in
this context.
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Okay, the word “worship” carries a lot of baggage. Besides, it is an artifact
from the “God is King” metaphor anyway. Though a power-hungry earthly king
might require adulation and homage, I think it is wrong to think that God
requires it.
The key response to God IMO is an attitude of gratitude. I am thankful for my
life and all of the blesses I have been given, and in response I have decided
to live my life the way in which I believe God would want. So worship to me is
celebrating God’s mercy and blessings with others in an attitude of
thanksgiving.
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You can believe the sky is
yellow (or that God doesn’t exist), but as long as you respect others and
are a good person, what’s the big, ahem, deal? God is much more interested
in how we treat each other WAAAY more than what we believe IMO.
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Forgive me, but this strikes me as a major shift in the way you articulate
your belief.
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Hmmm. Maybe in articulation, but not in belief. One of my favorite books in
the OT is Isaiah. Check this out (Chapter 1:11-18)
“What are all your sacrifices to Me?” asks the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings and rams
and the fat of well-fed cattle;
I have no desire for the blood of bulls,
lambs, or male goats. When you come to appear before Me,
who requires this from you-
this trampling of My courts? Stop bringing useless offerings.
I despise your incense.
New Moons and Sabbaths,
and the calling of solemn assemblies -
I cannot stand iniquity with a festival. I hate your New Moons and prescribed
festivals. They have become a burden to Me;
I am tired of putting up with them. When you lift up your hands in prayer,
I will refuse to look at you;
even if you offer countless prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.
“Wash yourselves. Cleanse yourselves.
Remove your evil deeds from My sight.
Stop doing evil. Learn to do what is good.
Seek justice.
Correct the oppressor.
Defend the rights of the fatherless.
Plead the widow’s cause. “Come, let us discuss this,”
says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they will be as white as snow;
though they are as red as crimson,
they will be like wool.
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I find this formulation more palatable, but I must confess that
it surprises me.
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I sadly acknowledge the truth in Brennan Manning’s indictment on followers of
Christ:
‘The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today...is
Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the
door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. THAT is what an unbelieving world
simply finds unbelievable.’
It is inevitable that imperfect humans proclaiming the Gospel will fall short of
the very message they bear. But I ask you: does this reflect poorly on the
message or the messager?
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Well, don’t assume that an atheist will automatically mock the bible. I
may not believe that the book was inspired by a deity, but a secure
believer should hardly consider a differing viewpoint to be mocking.
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Hmmm. Most atheists I know have a pretty condescending attitude towards
religion.
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Tit for tat. I have seldom---correction: I have never met a
self-professed Christian who did not, upon learning that I’m atheist, make
some sort of “aww, that’s too bad” declaration, as if I have a mental
shortcoming to be pitied.
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Don’t you, by the same token, shake your head, if not to yourself, that such
people are, put kindly, clueless and generally ignorant?
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I can generally shrug it off, in much the same way
that it means nothing to me when people laugh at my utter ignorance of
baseball
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What??? Do you mean to sit there and tell me that you have no idea who won the
World Series in 1987 AND 1991?????
:-)
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or golf, but the sentiment is condescending regardless of my thick
skin!
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Leviticus is still commonly invoked to condemn homosexuality or excesses of
alcohol consumptions. I note with interest once again that condemnations
of shellfish consumption are less common, as are entreaties not to touch
menstruating women. Hmm...
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Look, just because one is a Christian doesn’t mean that they are necessarily
clear thinkers. There is great confusion among Christians WRT to
understanding the OT in context of the NT.
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This, too, seems to represent an evolution in the way you articulate your
view, and honestly I welcome it! The problem is that the self-professed
Christians who have the power to dictate public policy are very seldom
challenged by similarly powerful Christians with opposing views.
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Hmmm. I’m not so sure. I have plenty of Christian friends (virtually all
of my kollege buddies with whom I still keep in contact) who are very staunch
Democrats! Isn’t Kerry a Catholic opposing an evangelical George Bush?
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Almost
invariably the default answer is “well, I disagree for the most part, but at
least he’s basing his view on the Bible.”
That may be a fundamental logical difference between atheists and theists; no
two atheists will ever agree solely because a book instructed them a certain
way; the argument must stand on its own without resorting to the deus ex
machina of biblical invocation. Of course, this doesn’t judge the underlying
intelligence of the atheist or theist--merely a difference in logical
approach. I admit, though, that I prefer the atheists’ rhetorical method.
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I just find some questions are unadequately addressed by logical and scientific
analysis, and unfortunately, they are the BIG QUESTIONS:-/
JOHN
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